Building low walls around a smithy

[TMIB]

I'd like some feedback on this plan, (plus I have some specific questions toward the end.)

The smithy building at the Camp Hahobas Boy Scout Camp is a 20'x40' open-side pole building. We used trees harvested from the property for the uprights, and it lends a lot to the atmosphere of the smithy to have the nice look of the wood posts.

 

However, I'd like to add a low wall around the smithy; something to help block wind, direct foot traffic and provide a simple barrier. I've decided on a 3' wood wall. That'll be tall enough to be effective, but short enough that the kids observing can see over it comfortably. However instead of a fixed wall, I want them to be able to swing open to move equipment in and out easily. 

 

Between the posts on each side is an 18' span. I plan to have two "gates" covering each of these. These will likely be rough-cut cedar 4x4's with 2x6's as facing. On the ends of the building we have door sills already cast into the concrete footing, so the walls on those end will not swing. Instead they will be fixed on each end (but could theoretically be lifted out).

 

Some pictures may help:

Here's a couple views of the smithy today. The rope around the edges is where the "walls" will go.

Smithy view 1: http://i.imgur.com/0ayXbsV.jpg

Smithy view 2: http://i.imgur.com/87FLLsV.jpg

 

Here's a rough sketchup picture of what the walls may look like:

Sketch: http://i.imgur.com/YltvCEU.jpg

 

The "gates" will swing on strap hinges, I'm figuring 2"x1/4" stock. I haven't decided on simple rolled eyes or rolled & welded. With the number of hinges needing to be made, I'm likely going to make a hinge roller tool, like the one in Donald Streeter's book (https://youtu.be/cUg8xdDcNz4)

 

Since a 9' wood wall is going to be pretty heavy, I'm also looking to support the gate end with a tie that goes back to the top of the posts. This can be cable or rod with a turnbuckle in the middle, or perhaps a forged chain.

 

I was originally thinking of driven pintles for the hinges, kind of like these:

Driven pintles: http://i.imgur.com/iOSPuOo.jpg

 

However, I 'm wary about something that's going to damage the posts, or work its way out over time. I like the simplicity of them though.

 

Then I thought of those really great looking post wraps I saw all over Government Camp at the Western States conference:
Post wraps: http://i.imgur.com/0hSXr3V.jpg

 

With those, I thought maybe I can use pintles like these:

Pintle plate: http://i.imgur.com/6CwOpsr.jpg

 

and use the same bolts that close the post wraps to bolt them to it. The issue there is that on the corners, the pintles are 90 degrees to each other, not 180 like they are on the middle posts. I could add a second strap that just connects to the short walls, but that's not as clean.

 

• What do you think? Any glaring problems with this plan?
• How long do you think I should make the strap hinges? Is 2"x1/4" strap going to work?
• Rolled eye vs. rolled and flat welded- here's a rolled & welded strap:  http://i.imgur.com/JFVvIMb.jpg I'm concerned about the rolled eye opening. Even though the end of the gate will be supported by a tie, I'm sure at some point it'll have kids hanging on it, so I'm leaning towards rolled & welded.
• I was looking at 1/2" pintle pins, do you think that's enough or should I go larger? 3/4"?
• Lastly, do you think the wraps around the posts with the pintles bolted to them is better or worse than driving pintles into the posts? (both in terms of asthetics and durability)

 

[turbo7]

What do I think? Nice looking smithy. You are making a lot of unnecesary work for yourselfs, put 2 gates at each end and leave 4' open for access. Make your 3'walls along the side fixed walls. Straps around the posts are better and will look better and could be forged there (nice). I'd be getting chimney's on the forges as well. Whatever you do that will be an even better looking smithy when your done.

[TMIB]

What do I thithnk? Nice looking smithy. You are making a lot of unnecesary work for yourselfs, put 2 gates at each end and leave 4' open for access. Make your 3'walls along the side fixed walls. Straps around the posts are better and will look better and could be forged there (nice). I'd be getting chimney's on the forges as well. Whatever you do that will be an even better looking smithy when your done.

thanks for the great thoughts. Unfortunately, there's another building on one of the short ends of the smithy and a berm on the other short end, so the long sides are my best bet to get equipment in and out, since that is where there is room for gates to swing open.

If I do straps on the long sides for the gate hinges, do you think it would look odd to have the fixed walls on the short sides attached with driven pintles instead of a second strap on the corner posts?

Chimneys on the large forges is certainly something I have on my list of improvements. Right now we have a pretty constant wind from one of the short sides, but I want to put up some canvas or other heavy tarp material there that can be rolled down as a wind block. Having chimneys on the forges at that point will be very nice.

[turbo7]

No need to put a second strap on, forge 90 degree straps for the corners, really only need one gate, how often will you be bringing gear in and out? Gate only needs to be 10' wide. Gate will only swing out, dont want it swinging in as that takes up room if you have a truck in there ( think power hammer) I would mount the gate hinges on the outside centre of the post so it can be opened up wide.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Weight over a 9' gate is going to be a bit, if using sawn lumber, use 1x cedar fence pikets, 6' dog eard can be cut in to 3' and the corners knocked off. Saves a lot of weight. Tho staying with the wood craft theam one might consider eithe split cedar or sedar staves like are used in horse fences.(the branches left over from clearing cedar from pastures, they make lumber, posts and staves) another option is sedar shingles to face the movable walls.

as to henges, look at "rat railed hinges" the pental is punched and drifted, the pivot extends down to be bent, leaf ended and bolted to the wall or post, makes the pental side much stronger you may also considera brace from the far end to the higher on the wall, from a third hinge. Wooden gates sag. 

Inner and outer gates might also serve, a pair of barn doors that wiil seave as better, adjustable windbreaks, as well as providing more security, combined with hurdles (picket fences) to keep spectators at a safe distance. Small timber can certainly be used to frame the doors, and then they can be faced with planks, splits or shingles. The hurdles can be a clasic picket fence of a clasic "hurdle" made of saplings and branches. Much more woods crafty. 

[TMIB]

No need to put a second strap on, forge 90 degree straps for the corners, really only need one gate, how often will you be bringing gear in and out? Gate only needs to be 10' wide. Gate will only swing out, dont want it swinging in as that takes up room if you have a truck in there ( think power hammer) I would mount the gate hinges on the outside centre of the post so it can be opened up wide.

​Straps with tabs at 90 degrees is so brilliantly simple it eluded me. Thanks! (No that's not sarcasm, I didn't really picture that until you said it)

The big posts are 18' apart, which is why I have a double-gate planned, rather than adding another post on the end of a 9'-10' gate. Someone else suggested that if we have the gates swing in, we could subdivide the smithy, but I don't picture a scenario where that is ever going to be a realistic need. Having them swing out only is likely, plus if I have cable running from the top of the post to the end of the gate, it won't swing inward anyway, due to the angled wood supports from the posts to the roof.

I don't really think I need swing out gates in the back, I might go with a lift-out wall there, though I am trying to plan for what the area might look like in 50 years. If things continue like I expect they will, the area behind the smithy will be cleared back, and having a gate on the back may be valuable.

 

[TMIB]

as to henges, look at "rat railed hinges" the pental is punched and drifted, the pivot extends down to be bent, leaf ended and bolted to the wall or post, makes the pental side much stronger you may also considera brace from the far end to the higher on the wall, from a third

​Take a look at the sketch image I posted and the "driven pintles" picture. Are those what you had in mind?

[Charles R. Stevens]

Exatly, lol. Sorry I had trouble opening the images earleer

[TMIB]

Exatly, lol. Sorry I had trouble opening the images earleer

​No problem, just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing. Thanks!

[Charles R. Stevens]

Yes sir, they just have a serius cool factor to boot

natinal hardware caries a screw in one, a day or three in viniger will take off the galvie. They ones with a rivited pin can have the pin knocked out, but they make a female one with no pin that works great as you have a bit of adjustment and just have to make the apropriate rat tail

Edited April 24, 2015 by Charles R. Stevens

[turbo7]

Inward swinging gates would be ok but inly if they swing to a wall, anywhere they eill be a pita one day, or look at no big gates just lift out panels.

[DSW]

This Eagle Scout thinks that all looks great. I wish I'd had the opportunity to do smithing when I was in scouts back in Washington State. I can't complain too much, I had the opportunity to do a lot of things with Scouts out there many will never get the chance to do in their lives.

I have to agree making the gates as light as possible will be in your best interest. You might also want to make provisions for some sort of "feet" under them, so that the hinges and wires don't have to take all the  weight when kids eventually sit on them. Wheels are another possible solution to this. they are quite common on large swing driveway gates.

 

If the 9' out swing is an issue, one option might be to make bifolds of the gates. Of course this would mean changing your cable rigging. It would be more complex, but would cut down on size. I doubt these are going to be opened often though.

 

I can't remember if I was ever out at Camp Hahobas in my time out there in the 80's. We weren't all that far away as I lived in Keyport on base and was a member of Troop 971 out of Poulsbo, Wa. I can remember going to a couple of camps out there other than summer camp ( I'm drawing a blank on where we would go tonight) but that name isn't ringing a bell. We were lucky enough that about 60+% of the troop were military. My father was base CO at Keyport and his command had a lot of open land on the Hood canal that was used for test and support for when they did torpedo tests, so we did a lot of our camping there. That whole area down there is probably a lot more built up then back when I lived there in the early 80's.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Instead of swinging, what about rolling sideways? Like a sliding glass door? 

Most summer camps move everything into storage at the end of the season, so moving stuff in and out easily is a must.

23 years with Troop 252 Fairfield ,CA

[SpankySmith]

I had some very wide wood gates that I ended up having to replace on too regular a basis, the weight and width combo made it impossible for them not to sag, deteriorate over time.  Because I needed wood to match an existing privacy fence, my final solution was to install a cattle gate, which rolls on wheels made just for cattle gates - I then installed the wood planks on the metal gate with self tapping screws for appearances sake.  In your application have you considered just adding cattle gates?  They make the shorter ones which would meet your need and might end up coming in less expensive.  The wheel under each end opposite of the hinges takes a tremendous load off the hinges themselves and depending on the type of hinges you use could also then be lifted up and moved completely out of place if needed.       Hope any of that makes sense, just a thought after struggling myself for many years with wood gates across long expanses. 

[Quarry Dog]

  There's an old wooden barn that was relocated to the park where my guild's shop is at.  It has really wide doors hanging from a roller system, and they open very easilly.

  If you didn't want the rollers/rails in sight it probably wouldn't be hard to make a wooden cover over them.  They would probably last a lot longer too.

[Charles R. Stevens]

The clasic salution to preventing lage gate sag is to use a tension brace from the far corner (bottom is best) and use a taller gate post. Then either hand the gate from the fence side (the fence keeps the gate from pulling over the post) or to use two tall posts, with a header/spreader. In this case the roof would be the spreader. Tho the welded steel frame has become the wooden gate of choice in many arrias. Honestly for a short movable fence, hurdles may be a better choice. A split cedar log with rails and stiles intaled on top. Or dementinal lumber sleepers 90 to the fence line (i used this in Glendale Arizona to conceal my jeep project from code enforcement. I built two free standing fence panels that I set aross the end of the carport, they served as privacy screens when not concealing my junk.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Haha! I knew there was a reason I liked you Charles.  Jeep concealment panels.....

[Charles R. Stevens]

Belive me, a narly  bout if chicken pox in the middle of replacing a 2.5 and ax5 with a 3.2 and a 700r4 sucks! But it scared away the code enforsment folks when I answerd the dore and I looked like a pleug zombie...

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I have a lot of disdain for code officers, and the codes they represent. That is why I got a couple of acres out in DaBoonies.

[notownkid]

Is it just me or but do the scouts need a few safety lessons here.  Shorts, Sneakers, no socks. short sleeves. I hope the First Aid section bought a lot of Burn ointment.  Nice building, presume a good program but something seems lacking here.  Looks like they are about to play tennis not forge something hot. 

Must be my age!

[turbo7]

$ might be better spent on boots and long pants first TMIB ?

[TMIB]

Hah, yeah good call. Normally my rule in the smithy at camp is no open-toed shoes, long pants required. That particular summer it hit over 100 degrees in the shade. I let them wear shorts in the smithy that week, but everyone has to wear aprons. I didn't see the no-socks guys, I'll have to remind my staff to keep an eye out for that in the future.

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

i work in 100 degree weather, i grew up inthe Sonaoran desert just outside of Phonixe. And now live in Southern Oklihoma. I dont want to sound codisending, but boots, long,100% notural fiber pants and shirts are not optinal, hydration, shade, airflow, an easy work pase and vigilence for sighns of heat prostration are not optinal due to weather. i would no more let you wear shorts and sandles horse back, or wear a nylon/polly coat in my forge. 

[TMIB]

You bring up some very valid points. Bear in mind though that this isn't Arizona or Oklahoma, and those kind of temperatures are not common.
I take safety very seriously at our smithy. We get 200+ boys coming through during the resident camp every summer, plus JROTC groups, and low income youth groups, at risk youth groups, etc. Many of these young folks have no exposure to the trades at all, and have never swung a hammer of any kind, let alone done metalwork of any sort. While I don't want to coddle them, I also make judgement calls in regards to what is and is not appropriate in the smithy. For example, I don't let them wear gloves. That's a whole debate that could be continued on another thread, but by teaching them to understand and control the heat in the metal they are working with, instead of hiding it, we don't have to worry about a complete novice grabbing a hot bar with a glove. They use long stock or tongs, and cool it when the held end starts to get warm. Moving through our smithy, they are taught to clear a path first, moving everyone out of the way, *then* go back to the forge and get their hot metal, before calling out "hot metal to the ____" (indicating where they are going)

The two areas brought up here- boots and long pants, are interesting points- I require closed toed shoes and encourage but do not require boots. I have no way to provide boots for participants, and many of these young folks do not own or cannot afford a decent pair. There's a range of course, some of these kids would have no problem with it, and probably own a few pair already. However we are working with light stock, and there is little danger of serious injury to the feet if they are wearing shoes and socks. Likewise for that one particular summer I let them wear shorts, though I still required aprons. While some light burns from hot scale could occur, the risk of any serious injury is minimal. I require them to bring a water bottle, and if I don't see folks drinking enough water, I'll enforce it by kicking everyone out for 5 minutes to go drink.

This is an interesting topic for discussion, but I'd like to request your indulgence and get back to the original topic, perhaps starting the discussion of safety equipment and clothing on another thread. I don't want the discussion directly associated with our camp if possible. We have some parents that get upset the moment a scout gets so much as a blister, and unless we put them in a full asbestos suit, there's going to be some tradeoffs. A parent reading this could get the wrong impression of our program and it wouldn't take much more than a phone call or two to shut down a program that serves hundreds of youth every year.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Your request is reasnable and understandable. 

At this point , I know your fixesated on gates, but after considering what your doing, woods craft built hurdles would be a very good, multi purpose solution. Not only would they provide for your curent need, but the same desighn, if not the same hurdles could be repurpesed to provide "croud baricades" for other activities and demonstrations that the casual observer or over enthusiastic youth may not consider the dangers involved.  To use a simple example. Casic axe and hatchet skills, supervised and safley practised are a fundimental woods craft/bushcraft skill, but an axe or hatchet can slip or an unobsevant paser by can walk into the swing or bump the axe man. Not to mention simpe ill consiterd "grab @$$'n" kind of how NYPD uses giant blue saw horses for croud management. And just think of the opertunityes to teach, selecting and stripping sapplings, splitting loggs, drilling holes, cutting mortis and tenens, using blind and not so blind wedges, pined mortises, lashings... Knife, axe, saw, fro (hand forged) wedge (hardwood, woodcraft) chisel (hand forged) brace and bit (hand forged) maul or beatle (hardwood, woodcraft)... Hands on old school woodscraft. Not to say dementinal lumber cant he used as well, and basic woodworking/carpentry skills learned insted. An opertunity to use those hand forged nails! 

Hint on hurdles and other "green wood" construction. Placing a dry tennion into a green motice makes for a very tight joint! A clasid "hurdle" would be a split log, with an upright post (say rist thick) every couple of feet with slinder saplings (grape, hunysucle, willo...) woven between them. A gate can be made by puting a top on the uprights after weaving and ends to mount henges. Hurdles are also made (more modern do to scarsity of wood in europe with mortis work frames. 

 

Edited April 27, 2015 by Charles R. Stevens