Help with creating a RR Anvil

[Diminishi]

 

I am new to blacksmithing and have been trying to put in the proper research to get started.  I know that buying an expensive anvil and forge would be a waste until I learn how to properly control what I am doing.  I found a guy that will sell me a piece of RR track that is a bit over 2' in length.  The track has the box edge as opposed to the large round edge, so I was wondering about standing the track on end and having a shop weld a 2" plate of steel on the end.  Is this a good idea or quick fix for the problem?  I would then strap the anvil to RR Ties or a large stump to brace it out and then drill something into the stump for a hardy hole.  I know this is a bit amateurish, but we all have to start somewhere.

 

I am in North Texas (Burleson) if anyone has any direct experience with this sort of thing (or happens to be a great welder!).

[njanvilman]

Standing the track on end is the best way to go.  Do not weld a plate on the end to work on.  Put the plate on the base and bolt that to your ties or stump.  Use the end of the rail as the anvil.  If you need a hardy hole, find some square tubing, or make it out of angle or flat stock, and weld it to the flat part of the rail. 

 

The only place the rail anvil is doing anything is directly under the hammer.  You will have enough area to work on.

[Diminishi]

Thank you for the reply.  I am worried I will have a very small area to strike but I also see what you are saying.  Having a plate on the end doesn't help for any area where it is hanging over blank space.  Great idea on the square tubing as well.  I have no idea why I figured it should be more difficult to have a hardy.

[NickOHH]

Another idea would be to cut in half or or 1 12" section and 2 6" sections mount 1 on end 1 laying on it's side and the 12" in its normal position and take more advantage of all the differnent surfaced avalible to you . The Benifit of it standing on end is there is more mass under your hammer. But as other people on here will tell you too, you paid for the whole thing so you should use the whole thing.

[DSW]

Another idea would be to cut in half or or 1 12" section and 2 6" sections mount 1 on end 1 laying on it's side and the 12" in its normal position and take more advantage of all the differnent surfaced avalible to you . The Benifit of it standing on end is there is more mass under your hammer. But as other people on here will tell you too, you paid for the whole thing so you should use the whole thing.

 

How is standing it up on end as is, NOT using the whole thing? You get the most mass under the hammer this way. You pretty much just suggested to him he take say a 60 lb anvil and turn it into a 30 lb one and 2 15's. While in some cases a small light anvil may be useful, He'd probably be better off coming up with a way he could use the rail either standing up as is, or set things up so he could lay it down if need be.

[FoxFire]

My first anvil was a piece of rail maybe 10" long. I mounted it laying down (flange down) and radiused the top heavily for about 1/3, lightly for another 1/3, and ground the last 1/3 flat. Maybe not the most efficient setup but it worked for me and I still use it for drawing out heavier stock with a big hammer when my arm is a little tired...

[Diminishi]

Thanks to everyone for their ideas and suggestions.  I think I will probably stand it on end and try to radius a bit of a curve onto it.  Trying to get someone to weld a piece of square tubing on the opposite end would also solve the hardy issue.  All things considered, I am super excited to get to work on it.

[NickOHH]

 

How is standing it up on end as is, NOT using the whole thing? You get the most mass under the hammer this way. You pretty much just suggested to him he take say a 60 lb anvil and turn it into a 30 lb one and 2 15's. While in some cases a small light anvil may be useful, He'd probably be better off coming up with a way he could use the rail either standing up as is, or set things up so he could lay it down if need be.

​i started with an 18# piece of rr track, standing the whole thing up you will have more mass under it obviously but he will need to come up with a way to preferably mount it securely but still be able to somewhat easily remove it to change its position. was just an IDEA to make it easier to have more positions available without having to change the setup every time.

what would be a good way to mount it securely  but be able to move it quickly to change positions when needed? i have mine mounted with lag bolts, but theres no way to move it with out pulling atleast 2 of them if i wanted to flip it, i guess it was more geared to my setup.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Look at the rail from different angles, there is a 1 1/2" x 3" end with a web and flange, with a hammer with a 1 1/4" face (2 1/2#?) you have most of the mass under the hammer. If you modify the web, you can have a fuller or bottom swages. By cutting away part of the flange you can carve out a double horned bick, this gives a lot of versatility. But you still have 5 other faces you can work with, turned flange up, you have a nice wide chiseling bench and a nice edge for sheet work, if you carve a horn out of the othe end you have a bigger bick and a 1 1/2" cone mandrel (turned horn up) laced with the rail up you have a 3" wide flat surface with two radius end edges to work with, and laid on its side you can use the hollow between the flange and rail to work curves. This is using the "whole anvil) 

As the end of the rail some what limits your hammer size ( half face blows not withstanding) cutting the rail in to two pieces won't kill you, as a Iron/viking Age anvil facsimily can be made from a 3"-12" slice (with 2 double honed bicks) and gives you a second chunk to carve more working profiles in. 

As to securing it, if you can score a track plate and 4 spikes you can fabricate a boot shaped stump that will support either end at working hight. Use the plate and spikes vertically to make a slip fit bracket to slide the flage into. 

 

[norrin_radd]

Is it bad form to post a link to another blacksmith forum/sites pretty decent RR track page? 

Edited February 19, 2015 by norrin_radd

[Charles R. Stevens]

Anvil fire doesn't like it, and will ask Glenn to remove the link.

[Diminishi]

Look at the rail from different angles, there is a 1 1/2" x 3" end with a web and flange, with a hammer with a 1 1/4" face (2 1/2#?) you have most of the mass under the hammer. If you modify the web, you can have a fuller or bottom swages. By cutting away part of the flange you can carve out a double horned bick, this gives a lot of versatility. But you still have 5 other faces you can work with, turned flange up, you have a nice wide chiseling bench and a nice edge for sheet work, if you carve a horn out of the othe end you have a bigger bick and a 1 1/2" cone mandrel (turned horn up) laced with the rail up you have a 3" wide flat surface with two radius end edges to work with, and laid on its side you can use the hollow between the flange and rail to work curves. This is using the "whole anvil) 

As the end of the rail some what limits your hammer size ( half face blows not withstanding) cutting the rail in to two pieces won't kill you, as a Iron/viking Age anvil facsimily can be made from a 3"-12" slice (with 2 double honed bicks) and gives you a second chunk to carve more working profiles in. 

As to securing it, if you can score a track plate and 4 spikes you can fabricate a boot shaped stump that will support either end at working hight. Use the plate and spikes vertically to make a slip fit bracket to slide the flage into. 

 

​Charles,

I will now be researching everything you just mentioned, as I have no idea what 3/4 of what you said is.  That is a good thing.  More knowledge and research can only ever help!

[Charles R. Stevens]

Any questions, just ask. I,m almost as long winded as Frosty

[DSW]

Nick, there are any number of ways you can mount the rail, and still be able to change it's orientation. Instead of lag bolts, try Hanger bolts. They are like lags on one end for mounting in wood, and the other is threaded like a bolt. Just lay out your bolt pattern so you can drill the lower flange for mounting holes that match your base plate. If you want to lay it on it's side, set it up so it lays on the stump, and secure it to a piece of angle iron with bolts going thru the holes in the bottom of the rail and the studs mounted in the stump or bench.  In fact if you want, you can set the rail up so it bolts to the base plate rather than weld it. They also sell inserts for wood that will take a standard bolt if you don't want the studs to stick up, or if you need to have multiple attachment points.

 

Many times I drive lag screws with my impact drill and a socket adapter. I can zing in and out lags in seconds. If the holes get too worn ( And it takes an awful lot of going in and out to do this, you can always drill them out and glue in dowels and redrill for the lags, or just shift the location slightly.

[NickOHH]

Nick, there are any number of ways you can mount the rail, and still be able to change it's orientation. Instead of lag bolts, try Hanger bolts. They are like lags on one end for mounting in wood, and the other is threaded like a bolt. Just lay out your bolt pattern so you can drill the lower flange for mounting holes that match your base plate. If you want to lay it on it's side, set it up so it lays on the stump, and secure it to a piece of angle iron with bolts going thru the holes in the bottom of the rail and the studs mounted in the stump or bench.  In fact if you want, you can set the rail up so it bolts to the base plate rather than weld it. They also sell inserts for wood that will take a standard bolt if you don't want the studs to stick up, or if you need to have multiple attachment points.

That's a good idea I'm gonna look into some hanger bolts for mine, I still use it from time to time and Marcy uses it unless she needs a true horn. It will be way more valuable if it was easier to change positions. That's been the main issue with it, doesn't have a real flat face anyway, but using it for the other shapes is handy.

[MAD MAX]

 

I am new to blacksmithing and have been trying to put in the proper research to get started.  I know that buying an expensive anvil and forge would be a waste until I learn how to properly control what I am doing.  I found a guy that will sell me a piece of RR track that is a bit over 2' in length.  The track has the box edge as opposed to the large round edge, so I was wondering about standing the track on end and having a shop weld a 2" plate of steel on the end.  Is this a good idea or quick fix for the problem?  I would then strap the anvil to RR Ties or a large stump to brace it out and then drill something into the stump for a hardy hole.  I know this is a bit amateurish, but we all have to start somewhere.

 

I am in North Texas (Burleson) if anyone has any direct experience with this sort of thing (or happens to be a great welder!).

​Yes, we all gotta start somewhere. However the better set up you can have the less headaches you will have. So here is what I personally would do with what you have. I would cut the RR track in half making Two 1ft pieces, I would then butt the thick part of the rails together and weld them that way. Then I would stand this on end and weld it to the heaviest piece of  Steel I could get Then mount the whole thing to a stout piece of wood/tree/chopping block ect.  this would give you a little bigger surface to work on and I believe have some fair action.  I would  weld a real heavy piece of square tubing to  what was the bottom part of the Rail farthest away from what you will use as the front.

Now if you wanted a horn try and find a Tooth from an Excavator Bucket and weld that to the opposite end from where the Hardy hole is. This would make,  I believe a usable Anvil until you can get something better, then you can use it for other things when you get an anvil.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Max, that is a lot of work. I realy think he can do a lot of good work for less investment, the cost of rod alone would get him a big chunk of scrap, as he already has a nice hunk of rail (80 or 90 point steel takes special rod and/or preheat) 

I have a chunk of heavy gage rail 2 feet long that I am planning to carve up for anvils (smallish stump anvils) and bick/stake tools. I'll reserve half for a "rail anvil" as a using/demo piece. 

I'lll start another thread to show the future new guys what can be done with a hunk of rail, and garner advice and criticism from the old salts.

[MAD MAX]

Max, that is a lot of work. I realy think he can do a lot of good work for less investment, the cost of rod alone would get him a big chunk of scrap, as he already has a nice hunk of rail (80 or 90 point steel takes special rod and/or preheat)

I have a chunk of heavy gage rail 2 feet long that I am planning to carve up for anvils (smallish stump anvils) and bick/stake tools. I'll reserve half for a "rail anvil" as a using/demo piece.

I'lll start another thread to show the future new guys what can be done with a hunk of rail, and garner advice and criticism from the old salts.

​Charles, You are more than correct about the amount of work and the rod cost. But you have to consider that Blacksmith stuff where I live if a lot harder to come by than it is in any place east of the rockies. I also have real stubborn streak that makes me do some dumb things. Heavy scrap where I live is even tough to get, its just a different world here so I guess it makes  for different ideas that seem silly to folks from other places.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Where in Oregon? 

Oklihoma is pretty bad about scrapping "useless" old stuff, or just pushing it off in a hole and covering it over.

I would think that logging, farming and fishing would constitute "heavy industry" shafting and sawyers anvils from lumber mills shouldn't be to rare, as heavy truck parts, train and rail parts not t mention earth mover/construction/road building equipment parts. 

Stuborn not withstanding, rail on end works pretty well, and with a relatively small investment in labor and consumables they can be mode in to a plethora of smith tools. 

[MAD MAX]

Right in the middle of the state. A lot of the heavy stuff was scraped during the last scraping boom. A scrapyard guy told me over 100 anvils were scraped in just a few years. The goofy thing is Most guys who haul scrap wont sell you any thing off their trailer or truck even if you offer them more than they would get for the whole load!!!!!!!!!!

[Charles R. Stevens]

Word to the wise, people are crazy

[njanvilman]

One local scrap yard near me will sort out and sell anything of value.  Usually about 3x what they paid.  The other big one has an owner that loves neat items, and has built a whole collection of neat things that have all been scrapped.  His workers sort out everything and save the good stuff for the boss.

[Frosty]

Any questions, just ask. I,m almost as long winded as Frosty

​True but I'm a better speller. <grin>

An anvil doesn't need different shapes to do different things. All it does is back the iron against the hammer's blow. Horns are recent additions and less necessary than most folk think, useful on occasion but not generally necessary.

A long or wide face isn't all that necessary either, you can true a piece up vertically on the flange just as easily and not many folk have an anvil face more than 12-20" long and width is almost as useful. A swage can come in handy occasionally, especially if you like welding cable or bundles of rd. stock. If you want to make tenons you want a  monkey tool instead.

A hardy hole is probably THE feature of a London pattern anvil I think of as pretty necessary but there are work arounds just like there are for everything. With the rail mounted on end and a little grinder time you can grind a hot or a cold hardy (a chisel for parting stock) I the flange or web. A butcher is an excellent tool and one of the few I actually prefer in the flange. This will allow you to set a shoulder perpendicular to the anvil face more easily Following the theme a bit farther you can grind fullers of various radius though the web and flange limit how much.

Things like chisel and bolster plates are as easy enough to make for a rail end anvil as a London pattern it just needs a couple tabs to keep it on the anvil in use.

The biggest thing to remember making a field expedient anvil is to NOT get too married to the idea of a "traditional" anvil. The true "traditional anvil" is something heavy and hard to beat against. All the cool shapes are extras.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Charles R. Stevens]

That goes with out saying, lol. I bet Glenn would make you a moderator, if you promised to edit my posts, :-)

[Diminishi]

Well, I got the iron. The guy also had a whole box of knife templates he let me buy. All seem to be a lightweight metal. I can't seem to stand the iron on end. The Hitt able surface would only be about 1.5" by 1". So I am going with the standard top up setting. I will need to take it to a shop that has a torch to cut the rail off. Today I discovered how tough that stuff is with an angle grinder and cut off wheels.  Everything teaches me something neq. Today's lesson was metal is hard. Lol.