Did a search of this site and tried google but didn't find what I was looking for.

 

I'd like to make a wall mounted hat/coat rack with an integral ball on each end of the hooks.

Never having done this before it seems like a bit of upsetting would be needed to get the mass for each ball.

Not sure if I'm going with flat or round stock.

Maybe 1/4 x 1".

 

thanks

 

I needed to make a 1" ball on the ends of a part that totals 20" long w/ 1/2" round between. I calculated the volume of 1" round stock to make this forging. The picture shows the starting 1" x 5-7/8" blank, then after balling the ends, then drawing down the center, then the final shape of the parts for a coat stand. 1-18-10 - JK

Hi Jeremy, very nice. I guess the little giant will come in handy for doing that with round or square stock.

If I used square, and then forged to an octagon, it might give those hooks an interesting look.

 

Is there a website with info that would help calculate the volume of material needed for that kind of project?

There is a way of wrapping a collar around an upset end and forge welding. The upset is reforged parallel sided to allow for a straight wrap, but it is still an upset. I do this on the end of cane bolt handle ends. The bolt handles are often begun with 1/2" round. I wrap the upset end with 1/4" x 1/2" leaving a slight gap between collar ends. The gap will fill by the material drawing together through hammering. It needs practice. You do a square, octagonal, round with repeated welding heats, much of the hammering is done backing into the far radiused anvil edge in order to preserve the shoulder.

If I had a bunch to do, I'd look at making a ball swage, especially if I had a power hammer to run it with.

Thanks Franks, that is a good visual.

In my area there are a few old wooden water pumps still standing that have a wonderful faceted ball on the end of the pump handle.

Wish I had been around to watch them make stuff like that.

I found a photo of one but when I tried to paste the link here it won't work.

 

DSW, I agree but I'd like to learn it by hand first before I use a machine.

grundsau, if you have a power hammer, then I'd just start by learning it on that, save wear and tear on the body and speed up production, why learn it twice? Just make the tooling, then be done with it.. that's what i'd call the easy way!! :)

here's what the faceted ball ends would look like

Make yourself a ball swage in the size desired. Obviously you have to forge up the first one so you can size the swage but after that you can pound out the ball ends all day. I have a bunch of different sizes for doing balls. 1/2 in ball on a 3/8 shaft works the best for tack hooks in the barn. My tire hammer has no trouble doing a 1 in ball. If you want the faceted look, forge the ball oversize and hand finish each one on the anvil.

Jeremy, your door handles look excellent. I like the taper into the ball as well as the incised twisted grip. Nice job.

Peter

Hi Peter, for the 1/2" ball on 3/8" shaft, did you upset the end to make the 1/2" ball?

Or was the 3/8" shaft forged down from 1/2" stock.

 

thanks,

Allen

Allen,

Fold over the end of the stock and weld it. You can forge weld in the fashon of a faggot welld or electric weld, they both work. Heat it up in the forge and finish in the swage. For doing runs of mounted hooks I have a second swage that forms the connection between the shaft and the flat mounting plate with 2 bobbed screw holes. I'll try and get some photos of a finished hook and of the ball swages.

Peter

Allen, calculate the volume of the ball for the end and the size stock between the ends, add them together and that is the total volume you need(double the ball volume being you want 2 on each hook). Then you can figure how much of your starting stock you need.

Jeremy, thanks. I'll look up how to do that.
Peter, I thought about welding the material back on itself.
I've done that when trying to make spatulas.

But, to make a ball on flat stock how would you do it?
Faggot weld one or two folds and some upsetting?

Allen - I would prefer to start with stock that is the same size of balls you want on your hooks, like I did - spring swage to shape the balls, then draw out the mat'l between the balls then flatten to desired thickness/width.

Okie dokie, thanks

Here is a first attempt with 5/8" sq stock but I decided to make a faceted ball rather than round.
I'm guessing the material was drawn down to almost 5/16" round.
I tried to emulate the end of a water pump handle in miniature by transitioning from square to round.
An original would be more rectangular and then transition to round.

It is a little rough and the next time I need to flatten the original 4 sides a bit more to remove the puckering from hammering the facets.
Also have to define the facets some more.
Some of the photos aren't that great but you get the idea.

Looks good Allen - your well on your way

Grundsau,

Starting with the the thickness of the ball will result in considerable effort on your part to complete the rest of the hook shaft.,unless you are making just one part. It is time consuming. Time us money as the saying goes. Now if say you are making a run of ten or twenty hooks with two ends, that means a lot if shop time at whatever rate it costs you to run the shop.

In many ways the blacksmith's trade is a study in the industrial science or "art" of production. How much can can you make a product for and how many of that product can you turn out. I'm sure the great industrialists of the late 1800s and early 1900s contemplated these same analogies. In many ways, the industrial revolution after the U.S. civil war was a study in this very concept. Blacksmith's with a production system became Titans of the industry and those businessmen smart enough to recognize and harness those talents profited beyond belief. The Bessmer steel making process (German) became US steel, due in large part to the vision, luck and timing of the civil war and the efforts of a Scott named Andrew Carnegie. History is a testimony to those that both can see talent and harness it. Success being the obvious byproduct. Art on the other hand, is bourn of life rather than science, although in some cases, it still uses the skills of the scientist it reflects the vision of its creator. There is beauty and function in both pursuits. Blacksmith's do, in our trade, walk in both camps.

Peter

Say what---The Bessemer steel making process (German)??????????????????????

 

The modern process is named after its inventor, the Englishman Henry Bessemer, who took out a patent on the process in 1856.^[5] The process was also independently discovered in 1851 by the American inventor William Kelly

It is a little rough and the next time I need to flatten the original 4 sides a bit more to remove the puckering from hammering the facets.
.

Good hammer control there. It is allways difficult working a lump on the end of a thin "handle". I am always trying to find ways to make the process idiot proof because I had lots of problems getting cracks and then the end falling off. :(

My response to your post therefore...

"Next time" you might save a heat or two if you use a female vee bottom tool/swage to support the bar, and a male profile vee top tool coming in on the arras. The ball facets are then formed at the same time as the necking and will also provide a start for resting on the anvil edge to thump in the end corners. It will also give you the option to have a thicker stem at the junction to the ball should you require it....or at least maintain a stronger / less vulnerable neck whilst forming the ball.

The male vee top tool would not have a sharp corner, as large a radius as possible for the end result required, whilst still keeping the neck strong.

Alan

A handy trick for forge welding on a ball is to forge weld on a nut.  It welds on much easier using a ball swage but can be done in a v block or round swage.  It is trickier to do but can be done on the anvil as well.  A square nut gives you more mass than a hex nut.  If you need more mass you will have to roll up stock that you plan on welding to the bar.

While I'm sitting along I-83, 12 miles north of the Baltimore beltway with a disabled truck (I drive tractor trailer parttime) figured I'd go on iForge.

Alan, I necked the rod down to about 3/8" and then did the facets.
I used a smithin magician with butcher dies first and then flat dies to clean up neck.
Then took it down the rest of the way.

Do you have any photos of the V tools you described?
I can't picture them.

John, just saw your post.
Sounds good about the nut.
What about a square chunk of steel with a hole drilled in it to match the end of the rod and then forge weld that?

Grundsau,

 

A few pics of the ball end hooks I referenced earlier. 1/2 in ball on a 3/8 in shaft. I make  two ball ends, cut the unit in half and weld onto the wall mounting  plate. I use an open die on the power hammer to finish the piece so it appears seamless where it joins the plate.   These hooks went with a set of steak turners.

 

Peter

Thomas,

 

My error on the Bessmer process. You are correct.

 

Peter