Welding upside down

[Dodge]

Always push, there is no appropriate time to pull a MIG. Whoever taught you so was self-taught and incorrect. 

 

 

WHAT??? Sorry; had to blow out the coffee I sneezed through my nose :-D MIG welding was designed as an all position all direction process. After 25 years of production welding (initially trained by AWS certified welding techs following a year long AWS recognized welding diploma program) producing traffic and power transmission standards, I (as well as all of my fellow co-workers) have welded in about every welding position and direction imaginable and trained numerous new welders. Push or pull is entirely situation based and personal preference. Some situations require one over the other. Pulling actually yields better penetration as you are pointing your molten wire into the weld puddle. Pulling is more difficult, however and the shielding gas pressure is critical because it is possible to contaminate the puddle with too much gas. Pushing tends to yield a prettier weld; especially for those new to MIG welding. However, its possible to not achieve the best penetration because you are pushing the molten wire onto cold (relative to the puddle) metal. When you think of it in these terms, it only makes sense. Our weld techs use to frequently tested to destruction (as well as ultrasound magnaflux testing) test plates done for various customer requirements dealing with the DOT as well as individual state and international requirements. Take it for what its worth, but I have seen the difference between pushed welds and pulled welds. The pushed welds rarely had the same penetration in to the parent metal as the pulled welds which, indecently is why it works better for thin sheet metal weld such as auto-body work.

 

As for overhead, I was taught (by AWS trained instructors) to turn the amps down lower than for flat or horizontal welding. Not a lot but some. (Its not a cake walk by any means)

 

Finally, If pulling a weld is wrong, watch out driving along most US highways and city streets. Traffic signal arms, light poles, high-mast interstate lighting as well as power transmission standards are riddled with pulled welds :ph34r:

 

Scott

[Robert Yates]

Awesome work Brother Scott .

[Charles R. Stevens]

Careful there Dodge, you and Sgt. Yates are well on your way to becoming Chermugions. Lol

[Robert Yates]

To Celebrate the coming title :lol: How about a case of this ?

http://foundersbrewing.com/our-beer/curmudgeon-old-ale/

 

Sorry could not resist . Back to the thread Brother Curly did we / I make you mad If so I have stated I am sorry , Please forgive me and allow me to help you out with your welding. Come back and post some of your welds Brother I will do my best to help you succeed in fixing any issues you may be having with welding Sir .

 

Ret, Sgt. Yates

[Dodge]

All of the sudden, I am thirsty ^_^

[arftist]

WHAT??? Sorry; had to blow out the coffee I sneezed through my nose :-D MIG welding was designed as an all position all direction process. After 25 years of production welding (initially trained by AWS certified welding techs following a year long AWS recognized welding diploma program) producing traffic and power transmission standards, I (as well as all of my fellow co-workers) have welded in about every welding position and direction imaginable and trained numerous new welders. Push or pull is entirely situation based and personal preference. Some situations require one over the other. Pulling actually yields better penetration as you are pointing your molten wire into the weld puddle. Pulling is more difficult, however and the shielding gas pressure is critical because it is possible to contaminate the puddle with too much gas. Pushing tends to yield a prettier weld; especially for those new to MIG welding. However, its possible to not achieve the best penetration because you are pushing the molten wire onto cold (relative to the puddle) metal. When you think of it in these terms, it only makes sense. Our weld techs use to frequently tested to destruction (as well as ultrasound magnaflux testing) test plates done for various customer requirements dealing with the DOT as well as individual state and international requirements. Take it for what its worth, but I have seen the difference between pushed welds and pulled welds. The pushed welds rarely had the same penetration in to the parent metal as the pulled welds which, indecently is why it works better for thin sheet metal weld such as auto-body work.

As for overhead, I was taught (by AWS trained instructors) to turn the amps down lower than for flat or horizontal welding. Not a lot but some. (Its not a cake walk by any means)

Finally, If pulling a weld is wrong, watch out driving along most US highways and city streets. Traffic signal arms, light poles, high-mast interstate lighting as well as power transmission standards are riddled with pulled welds :ph34r:

Scott

Scott, I made a long detailed (line by line) reply to this, the site ate it, I am over it.

Bottom line, I have much more experience than either you or the Sarge, migs were not designed for out of position welding, that only became a possiblity with the advent of all position wire and variable voltage power supply, and pushing preheats, pulling is not recomended.

Sarge shows his actual knowledge and ability by applauding your post instead of correcting it.


Heat turned down for vertical and horizontal, not flat or overhead.

[Dodge]

Your mileage may vary. 

 

My very first web search for "Pull or push for best weld penetration" gave me this from Yahoo Answers (Not scientific but...)

 

"Best AnswerAsker's Choice:

 

For better penetration always pull.
When you push, molten metal from the weld pool flows ahead of the welding arc acting as a barrier between the arc and the solid metal thus the arc is not in direct contact with the solid metal.
When you pull, the dynamic force of the arc pushes the molten metal in the back of the arc thus allowing the arc to burn directly on the metal improving the heat transfer from the arc to the metal so the penetration increases.

I hope this helps"

 

And from the makers....

 

From Miller: http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/MIG-Welding-The-Basics-for-Mild-Steel/

 

"Push or Pull?

• The push or forehand technique involves pushing the gun away from (ahead of) the weld puddle. Pushing usually produces lower penetration and a wider, flatter bead because the arc force is directed away from the weld puddle.
• With the drag or backhand technique (also called the, pull or trailing technique), the welding gun is pointed back at the weld puddle and dragged away from the deposited metal. Dragging typically produces deeper penetration and a narrower bead with more buildup."

From Hobart: http://www.hobartwelders.com/elearning/

 

"15. A drag or pull gun technique will give you a bit more penetration and a narrower bead. A push gun technique will give you a bit less penetration, and a wider bead. (Refer to Diagram 3. Effect of Electrode Position and Welding Technique)"

 

I couldn't find anything definitive from AWS other than "Done properly, they both work and either could pass the test" As I said, much is up to the individual. YMMV

 

Unless they changed vendors, all of light poles in any Walmart/Sams and K Mart parking lot in the US and (this is a guess) over half of the traffic and street lighting poles (as well as thousands more shipped over seas) were made at the company I worked for. Most of those have pulled welds on the base plate and all but the largest poles were welded one by one by an individual person. Pulling the weld was the preferred method for the reasons stated previously. I personally probably burned in the range of conservatively 150,000 pounds of mig wire on those poles. Be careful where you park ;)

 

Now, I too am done. On to whirled peas ;)

[Robert Yates]

*** Fact Is A Syncrowave MIG / TIG / Heliark Machine is Very Capable of Either Push or Pull with 100% Penetration & Will Pass ALL of these Tests at a 100%, U-Bend, X-Rayed, UV-ed, Magnafluxed, and Ultrasound.  Wow with Technology the Welding Society & Capability has come a long way Brother Arftist. we are all getting old and Times, Equipment,and Techniques that are used do change.

 

Per: Miller, Hobart, & Lincoln Schooling Professors 30 Dec 2014 - Phone Call Time - 0730, 30 Dec 2014 - Call Time - 0845,30 Dec 2014 - Call Time -1030

 

This thread is Not about beating ones own chest or seeing who know the most about welding or what is the Newest Machine that can do what what Everyone needs done in the world Brother Arftist ! It is to Help out Curly in the UK that is having issues with some Burn through on some 1/8  / 4mm Boxed Plate Project he is /was building .

 

Anyhow I hope If Brother Curly Or Any one else does Needs Help this Thread Does NOT reflect Bad On the Forum or Myself or Others that are willing to lend a Helping Hand / Kind words of wisdom to solve some of your issues you may be having with any welding problems that may be plaguing you or your machine

 

With Respect and Best Regards Folks

 

Ret,Sgt. Robert D. Yates

[Dodge]

You are correct Robert. My apologies to the OP.

 

Semper Fi

Scott

[Kal]

 Charles, as another olde fart who couldn't see what he was welding, I discovered that a pair of cheater reading classes under my shield really helped things.  Turns out the weld puddle is about the same distance as you hold a book.

[arftist]

Your mileage may vary. 

 

My very first web search for "Pull or push for best weld penetration" gave me this from Yahoo Answers (Not scientific but...)

 

"Best AnswerAsker's Choice:

 

For better penetration always pull.
When you push, molten metal from the weld pool flows ahead of the welding arc acting as a barrier between the arc and the solid metal thus the arc is not in direct contact with the solid metal.
When you pull, the dynamic force of the arc pushes the molten metal in the back of the arc thus allowing the arc to burn directly on the metal improving the heat transfer from the arc to the metal so the penetration increases.

I hope this helps"

 

And from the makers....

 

From Miller: http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/MIG-Welding-The-Basics-for-Mild-Steel/

 

"Push or Pull?

• The push or forehand technique involves pushing the gun away from (ahead of) the weld puddle. Pushing usually produces lower penetration and a wider, flatter bead because the arc force is directed away from the weld puddle.
• With the drag or backhand technique (also called the, pull or trailing technique), the welding gun is pointed back at the weld puddle and dragged away from the deposited metal. Dragging typically produces deeper penetration and a narrower bead with more buildup."

From Hobart: http://www.hobartwelders.com/elearning/

 

"15. A drag or pull gun technique will give you a bit more penetration and a narrower bead. A push gun technique will give you a bit less penetration, and a wider bead. (Refer to Diagram 3. Effect of Electrode Position and Welding Technique)"

 

I couldn't find anything definitive from AWS other than "Done properly, they both work and either could pass the test" As I said, much is up to the individual. YMMV

 

Unless they changed vendors, all of light poles in any Walmart/Sams and K Mart parking lot in the US and (this is a guess) over half of the traffic and street lighting poles (as well as thousands more shipped over seas) were made at the company I worked for. Most of those have pulled welds on the base plate and all but the largest poles were welded one by one by an individual person. Pulling the weld was the preferred method for the reasons stated previously. I personally probably burned in the range of conservatively 150,000 pounds of mig wire on those poles. Be careful where you park ;)

 

Now, I too am done. On to whirled peas ;)

yes Scott the heat must be set appropriately. Not what of your other errors?

[ianinsa]

Well folks, this has become an interesting thread, I suppose it's why they say once you are a proficient 'drag artist' you rarely go back to being a 'pusher' :)

Seriously though as this is an international forum one has to remember that not only are we exposed to different voltages , technologies and consumables, training and/or lack thereof makes a massive difference. My personal bugbear and sometimes delight is the total lack of international standards for use v. Performance.

I mean use one brand of 309L wire and then use another, you usually need to adjust the machine. Similarly if you take the machine settings from one brand and put them on a machine from another brand they rarely perform the same way. Similarly a 300A welder here, Australia, middle east and in the UK will most likely be 380V 3Phase and in the USA possibly  not, so while welding practices will be similar, machine performance will vary (mileage too. ). :)

[Charles R. Stevens]

Kal, I'm afraid its not an issue of magnification as I've tried both magnifiers and my byfocals. Its the glare off the arc. One lense is so dark i cant see the seam, even with chalk, and the lighter shade i cant see puddle for the glare. I have resorted to covering the back of my hood and using work lights

[rthibeau]

strange..........this thread started about welding upside down.......surprised no Aussies have chimed in, it's natural for them ain't it?????  :wacko:

[knots]

Kal, I'm afraid its not an issue of magnification as I've tried both magnifiers and my byfocals. Its the glare off the arc. One lense is so dark i cant see the seam, even with chalk, and the lighter shade i cant see puddle for the glare. I have resorted to covering the back of my hood and using work lights

 

 

I wonder if Polarized hood inserts are available.   Prescription eyewear can be a nuisance when welding.  

[Dodge]

Other errors? The welding machine manufacturers are wrong? Valmont Industries, a world leader in lighting and power transmission structure manufacturing  is wrong? Its interesting when some folks are used to doing something for a given length of time they begin to feel as though they are doing it the only correct way. "You are wrong because that's not the way I do it!"  Atfist, I have never said you are wrong. You may indeed have more experience than I. That only means you did it the way you were taught longer than I. I would be welding professionally still had my body not worn out before my mind (and that is debatable ;) )  but I will never regret any weld I put down or may put down in the future nor will I believe I did it incorrectly. I have given evidence to support my claim. Not simply my opinion. If you can give concrete evidence to support yours, then I will certainly take it with more of an open mind than I have seen displayed by you

 

Scott

[Charles R. Stevens]

Couple of the folks here have done exactly that Jammer.
Dodge, an opinion can be changed, wile a belief, sort of death (or somthing nearly as tramatic) can't

[Charles R. Stevens]

No they are not Jammer, but they may be willing to share their experiance with others that are seeking to improve their welding skills. If the rest of us treat them, and other forum members with respect.

[Glenn]

Every person is born naked and totally dependent on others just to survive. As they grow older some grasp the opportunity and learn while some remain dependent on others to survive.  At any given time each person has their own life experiences, knowledge, expertise, and skill set.  Life continues and again some grasp the opportunity and learn while some remain dependent on others to survive.  

 

Point is each of us were GIVEN an opportunity to learn and through the help and assistance of others got to where we are today.  Those that realize the value of their gift pass it on to others. Some people think they have something special (which they do) but want to hide it from the world. At this point they stop learning as people stop sharing with them their knowledge, life experiences, expertise, and skill set.  Their learning is now on the slow track, and they now TAKE from others.

 

If we so not pass on and give our knowledge to others, we loose. We do not get the exchange gift of knowledge from others, and we miss that sometimes critical piece of information that will jump start our own knowledge and skill set.

 

If you need an example, grab the cold end, hit the hot end. Do you want to be GIVEN that knowledge or do you want to figure it out on your own?  Someone will read this and accept the knowledge on which end to grab first. THEY will benefit, and I did not loose anything by giving them the information. 

 

The choice is yours to give or not to give. 

 

--------------------------

 

As we introduce personalities into the mix things get complicated. We ask for references to see while piece of information appears more correct. In fact both may be correct, from the person providing the information. We need to take both to the forge and see which works best for us, in our forge, at our location, using our skill set. No matter what happens, one works, one doesn't, both work, none work, we WILL learn from the experience.

[BM454]

I always tell people welding overhead is the same as welding flat. I know that sounds crazy but, it is the same. Biggest thing with overhead is watching the puddle and travel speed. It's like any other weld. Most people get better with time under the hood.  I've welded on just about anything and everything over the years from a dozer to a nuclear reactor. Keep it up and keep burning rods. It will come to you in time.

 

Scott

Union Boilermaker Local 454 Chattanooga Tennessee

 Certified Pressure Welder