Peddinghaus, the drop forged steel anvil

[rockstar.esq]

Charles,

 

I appreciate the goodwill effort to smooth the waters.  Hopefully I haven't offended anyone, that's not my intention.   If the mods feel I'm out of line, I trust their judgement and offer my apologies.  A review can range from an expression of opinion, or it could be an objective presentation of the facts.  My efforts to sort the two should not be a problem.  I was grateful to Joe and Kubiak for posting the review as I've been considering these anvils for some time.

 

 

Joe,

 

Your review started out about your anvil.  It then went on to identify what to look for to avoid "fakes".  You seemed very concerned that people would be mislead so I asked for clarification.  You referred me back to your earlier posts, then posted definitions of fake that work against your usage of the term. 

 

By your logic every car maker since Karl Benz (or whoever you choose as the 1st) should distinctly mark their vehicle "Not Benz" because the public will be confused, duped, mislead, or otherwise cheated. 

 

To me, this takes legitimacy from your other factual claims. 

 

My point about the crooked hardy and chamfered edges didn't say that I know all of them to be flawed.  I didn't indicate or imply that had anything to do with drop forging, special metallurgy or anything else.  You argued that Kubiak's observations weren't important to a real smith. I countered that at that price, there are lots of options without flaws.

 

I was not impressed with the perspective that the Peddinghaus anvil is perfect and the world is to blame.

 

The anvil reviews are to provide meaningful observations on anvils, especially for people who don't have that anvil.  I asked questions because I was considering a Peddinghaus and wanted to understand your review better.  I definitely know more now as a result.

[TechnicusJoe]

Kubiak, Thank you! That is a nice evaluation of someone who bought it and uses with the plus and minus side. Thank you! This is what people can use well.

You can call me Joe, Kubiak, I'm fine with that. Fake doesn't seem to fall in the right place, I can work around it.

I think we can all agree on this definition of the Czech cast anvil: It's a cast reproduction of a Peddinghaus anvil pattern.
Because they're cast, they are cheaper. But they certainly are not the same in quality standards and performance as Peddinghaus.
This is fact, not opinion.

 

With the chamfering, could you take a picture of how the proportion is off for you? At what stock size does the smallest radius produced by the chamfering become too big for you?
That would be an interesting sight for people to see.


Thank you for adding the pictures, you have a beatiful set up. If you can get a clear photo of the stamp that's on the anvils today, I'd appreciate that very much.

[Charles R. Stevens]

No offence taken, just a gentle reminder that we are all guests here on Glenns front porch. I know from talking to him that spirited debate is apretiated, as long as at the end of the day we all can hoist are beverage of choice and honestly say "well met".
Personaly, Its as much about respect as it is not wanting to say somthing i wouldnt want my mother, daughter or granddaughter to read.

[kubiack]

I'll take a few more pictures of it when I get home from work.

[TechnicusJoe]

I am concerned about people being mislead. It's people's money we're talking about after all.

I don't think my definitions posted work against me. If I quote from the site itself; " 1. One that is not authentic or genuine; a sham."

Then it's very easy to ask the questions; has it been drop forged, produced under name and by.... quality control and on and on.
The answer is all no. Thus do you have an authentic/genuine Peddinghaus anvil? No you don't, thus not authentic/genuine.
And according to that dictionary I can replace those words with "fake".

But as you can read in the post I posted just after you did, I stepped down from that definition because not everyone agrees on the semantics, that's ok.

So I redefined it as the facts are: "It's a cast reproduction of a Peddinghaus anvil pattern.
Because they're cast, they are cheaper. But they certainly are not the same in quality standards and performance as Peddinghaus.
This is fact, not opinion."

With the logic I showed, you are close, but not spot on. What we have at hand here are 2 anvils that close to being completely identical in shape
In the car and other industries this problem occured, probably still occurs and somewhere will always be present.
The Czech cast version aren't sold under Peddinghaus, but there sure isn't any reasurence for the people who can't tell the difference.

 

With cars you you don't have all this because they don't look like each other. I am sure you can look up examles of cars that look the same. But they're different make in the end with different quality standards and thus performance.

Unless you want to go as vague as motorized vehicle with....... That would fit many more

objects as a description. In China they probably do and other countries how don't support things like trademarks.


I find it a bit weird. You don't own an anvil produced by (Ridgid) Peddinghaus. But you do call the hardy hole crooked without having seen it in person (I assume) and used it.
Kubiak didn't call it crooked, that's something you came with, even though you don't have one.

Please quote me on this and I will clearify if needed : "You argued that Kubiak's observations weren't important to a real smith"

I'd like you to present these anvils as well: "I countered that at that price, there are lots of options without flaws."
Show me anvil anvil with a hardy hole which is square to a few thousands of an inch. Or that the hardy hole is parallel to a few thousands of a degree.
And so there could be more pointers I could address.

LOL please quote me on this: "I was not impressed with the perspective that the Peddinghaus anvil is perfect and the world is to blame."
I compared Peddinghaus with Rolce Royce for both setting high standards.
But you can't quote me on saying they're "perfect" and that I blame the world. 


I agree, reviews are there to provide meaningful observations, for the people who don't own this product and are potentially interested.




 

[kubiack]

To keep the discussion going; To me the main reason that the Peddinghaus is such a good value is that one of the large US retailers puts them on sale every couple of years. Here is how the pricing stacks up on all the top quality double horns avaliable in the US market in the 250-275 lb range. I think the Peddinghaus is normaly around $2200 but is on sale right now for $1775.

 

Refflinghaus 275lb #58: $2400

Peddinghaus 275lb #12: $1775

Fontanini 250#: $1876,

Nimba Centurion 260lb: $1805

 

It is the cheapest of the bunch, weighs the most, is drop forged, induction hardened, and has a ground face. Unless you wanted to jump to the 330# Refflinghaus and get a side shelf I don't see a reason not to get the Peddinghaus. Also for my location the Peddinghaus were the closest and so the freight was about half of the other.

[TechnicusJoe]

Here are a few pictures of the anvil I have, this is a 303lbs Orginial P.F.P. Peddinghaus anvil. This is one of the older models, fire welded at the waist, instead of electrically welded like today.
This one came out of a school and has withstood use and probably abuse over time. Now I happily use it to my heart's content.

I don't know why these anvils vary in weight quite a bit. Probably because of the forge welding.

Today though, if you order a 35kg, 75kg, or 125kg model, they're all equal.
And they should weigh that weight (within a margin of course, say 124,5 or 126kg). And if you're unsatisfied you can always call them. 

 

From the opposite side of the upsetting block. Notice the hammer marks at the waist, from working the weld.

 

The old stamp they used on this one.

 

A closer look at the forge welded line.

 

It certainly is not as clean as the ones that are produced today under Ridgid Peddinghaus. But then again, they don't forge weld them together anymore.
Nor can I find the pricelists for how much these went for when they were sold new.

[kubiack]

Beautiful anvil, I like the look a the forge welds better than the electric welding.

[TechnicusJoe]

Here's a video of the other Peddinghaus anvil I have, weighing in at 277 pounds. Pretty much the old version of the new one today. Made the same way, forge welded at the waist, which can be easily spotted in the video.
 

Picture of the stamp on the 277 pounder.

 

 

Its bicks are finer than the 303 pounder, thus allows me to forge more delicate work. While the 303lbs because of its thicker posture allows me to draw out bigger stuff easier on the horn as there is more support.
Very handy for welding different sized chain as well!

You can skip the first 2 min. and 50 seconds as that's solely showing what the steel does in the fire. After 2:52 I will be at the 277lbs anvil.

[kubiack]

I took some more pictures of my anvil last night and also took some measurements on the hardy hole. I used a 6" machinist scale wedged against the side of the hole. Then to get an average of the side I placed 12" machinist scale along the side of the anvil. I then used a machinist protractor to take a reading between the two and it showed to be out of square by 2.5 degrees. It really looks like it is more than that but I measured it several times and from both sides of the anvil. I could not get a picture of the setup as it took both hands. I did take one with the 12" scale placed against the small scale in the hardy hole so you can see it better. I have a hardy bickern that is bent to a right angle and this is what it looks then same as the 12" scale when mounted in the hardy.

 

Makers mark & size:

 

Electric welding of the base and top:

 

Hardy hole:

 

Hardy hole with scales:

[TechnicusJoe]

Very good, thank you for posting and taking your time to take the pictures! I very much appreciate it.

Ok, this hardy hole is off by 2,5 degrees and will vary with every anvil. They are broached square after drilling, but not in an automized set up.
It's still a person who has to place the broach. I can imagine that they are lined out parallel, but could turn a few degrees as pressure is applied on the broach.

Give drifing a round hole in some flat bar a go with a drift that is square.

 

Fair to see, it's still off by 2,5 degrees. Have you meassured this on your other anvils too?

I wil take pictures of mine too and they're guaranteed not parallel exactly. Probably the same amount off as yours.
My Refflinghaus isn't parallel in the hardy hole exactly either. I don't think I have ever had an anvil with a hardy hole parallel to the face edges.

I'd love to see anvil with hardy holes which are neatly lined out.

But realistically, how does a lined out hardy hole make the anvil more valube or perform better? French anvils have the hardy hole off to the side.
And so there are more countries with different lay outs. A hardy hole is to accept hardy tools, punch holes, drift holes and any other uses you can think for it.
Having the hardy hole slightly turned, doesn't limit any of these functions.
Ok, fair enough. This pattern is designed with a hardy hole parallel to the face edges. But wouldn't you say this is an allowable tolerance?

As a smith, this is tolerable. How many things that we forge are exactly parallel or in the geometry as designed?
I guarantee, a lot will be off within a tolerance. A few times we will get it spot on, but that's not a norm which goes out.
Of course, any smith, such as myself, aspire to get it right and spot on. But we musn't forget it all costs time = money.

The anvil has been produced in an efficient as possible process to keep it affordable. Ok the hardy hole is slightly off. That's one thing, read it clearly, slightly not as one may desire.
Then the chamfered edges, that's something they do for edge chip prevention. Any experienced smith knows to work with radii, sharp edges will cause cold shuts and more.
This may not be the desireable radius, because it could be bigger than wanted. That sadly is then as it is.

Those are 2 pointers, a smith may not be satisfied with, which are minuses. but realistically, only small ones.
Don't lose sight of what you have at hand. You have a genuine forged steel anvil at hand.

As a smith we know the benefits of forging, we forge our tongs, hammers, etc. We live for forging, we create artifacts by plastically deforming steel and iron and sometimes other metals.
If this all doesn't make a difference, why don't we smiths work with cast tongs, hammers, punches, drifts?
Why aren't connection rods, axles, and other parts in big structures cast, or the crankshaft in your car? Because forging is stronger, it will last longer.

I do see that sadly some people feel like I stepped on their toes. I am sorry and appologize if you feel this way.

I own a (and I have to say high quality as well) cast steel Refflinghaus anvil. There's nothing wrong with them. It's a superbe anvil too.
You can use one of those Czech cast anvils too or a piece of railroad track or harbor freight ASO.

Though, when I put the anvils next to each other and forge on them, I can easily do that. Watch some of my videos, I have experimented countless times trying to find a difference in performance on different brands, shapes and sizes.
And the result becomes clear. Forging yields a higher performance because of its structure. Why else are any parts that demand higher strength and durabillity forged!?

But don't deify this product. You can still break it, abuse, and all other cruel things. Just like all other anvils ever produced. But less likely than a cast reproduction or other type of anvil.
Though a smith, who clearily is fond of forging, should know this.

You don't need a forged steel anvil to forge, no not at all. You can use an ASO, railroad track, concrete, rock, granite and still be able to do the same thing.
Though there is a huge but. Most smiths desire an anvil that works nicer and better than this, because obviously it has features the ASO, Railroad track etc. lack.

If rock and granite would work exactly the same as ASOs and railroad track. And these in their place work exactly the same as cheaper quality produced anvils.
Which in turn work as good as the mid-range quality anvils, which work exactly as good as the high quality range anvils.
Then no other, ground, dug, cut, cast or forged anvils would have been produced. They all wouldn't have existed.

Sometimes I see smiths state a railroad track anvil works as good as all other anvils etc. Or any other wording of this sentence, more or less implying this:  granite = railroad track = all other types of anvils.
While most of them have a decent anvil or more in their own shop.
Really...  now? Why don't they have granite or railroad track anvils in their shop and saved their money on the anvils they have?
Because obviously again, the performance is different. No one in their right mind would buy an anvil if it didn't make a difference.
But it does!

 

another statement I have been given:

For 1 Peddinghaus anvil (for example) I can buy 3 other anvils of roughly the same weight.
Yes, you can. And you could buy hundreds of railroad track anvils. But for some reason (obvious) this in turn isn't done (by the vast majority).
If money is such a big deal for this smith, why bother buying those anvils then? Especially when hinted or implying it all doesn't make a difference.
Go to a scrapper or railyard and buy the hundreds of railtrack anvils which are equal to other anvils. But that's not the case, the performance is different.


No one forces anyone to buy anything. Amongst Peddinghaus there are other great brands.
But if it is broken down to silly comparisons such as; for the money that anvil X costs, I can buy 100 times anvil Y.

Certainly, if it all didn't make a difference, this all would be correct. But it isn't the case.

Would you trade your railroad track anvil for a Peter Wright in reasonable condintion; always.
Would you trade your reasonable condition Peter Wright for a block of mild steel with clean edges: never.
Would you trade your block of mild steel for a railroad track for an anvil: most likely not.
Would you trade your Czech cast anvil for a block of mild steel; never.
Would you trade your Refflinghaus anvil for a Czech cast anvil: never

And so on...............

 

[HJP]

so much time wasted that could have been used  for forging

[kubiack]

That is quite the assumption on your part, and incorrect.

[TechnicusJoe]

Here as promised the pictures of the hardy holes of my anvils.

Peddinghaus 277lbs.
The hardy hole is a few degrees off, how many I don't know. I do know this doesn't affect its perfomance or use.
if this would be the a/only reason for anyone to not buy the anvil (thus just based on "it's not perfectly square and parallel with the face"), I wonder how consistent you are. Do you check your hammer handles to be exactly 90 degrees shafted?
Do you check your hammer eye is exactly in the center and not slightly turned? Does your anvil stand, correctly on it's stand or stump, perfectly at 90 degrees on the ground?
And so I could make the list miles longer.
A few degrees won't affect your work. And I'd certainly like to see any smith's work who makes everything perfectly. Everything square, perfectly curved etc.
If you can show a bulk load of pictures; alright. Then you're really a person to call it out as "not good enough".
But we know, as smiths, we don't. How much we may aspire it though, it's all within tolerance. And ours is completely different than NASA's.

 

303lbs Peddinghaus.
Same deal, about the same amount of degrees off.


The Refflinghaus.
It's got less of a turn to it than the 2 old Peddinghauses I have. These were drifted hot, not broached. Still, it's not perfectly parallel or square. Does it matter? I wouldn't say so.
Otherwise read what I just wrote at the start of this post, above the pictures.


 

[danguite]

Hey Joe, what is your source for the 58 hardness? I've been looking at new anvils for a few months and haven't found anything stating that for the Peddinghaus hardness.

Any info is appreciated. Thanks!

[TechnicusJoe]

My source for the hardness is having visited the factory in Germany myself. I can't find any correct display of it online, But they should be 58HRc.

Ask anyone with a Peddinghaus anvil, they're hard and good anvils.

[rjones]

I recently purchased a Ridgid Peddinghaus #12 anvil and would like to warn anyone who is planning to buy one. If you, like I did expect impeccable German craftsmanship forget it. Don't expect your anvil to look like the pictures. From the tip of the round horn to the tip of the flat horn the workmanship is second rate. The round horn is rough ground and has flat areas on it. I think a twelve year old with about an hour of training could do a better job of grinding. The hardie hole is sloppy. My 1" hardie wobbles around in it. Don't expect the surface to be flat. The middle can have as much as 10mm height difference between it and the tip of the flat horn. The weld at the waist may look good to some people and it doesn't make any difference for an anvil but the undercut is ridiculous. Overall it's just plain shoddy work on a good piece of steel. It's not that I don't like it. I don't know what it is but working on it feels right. My hammer has found it's mate. What can I say, I love my anvil. If you're a little OCD I wouldn't buy a peddinghaus. There are cast steel anvils that are probably just as good. Just my two cents worth.

[kubiack]

The Peddinghaus #12 I bought new a few years also had the flats on the round horn. I don't think they grind them though I think they are a result of the drop forging process. They are certainly not a problem to smooth out with a flap disk. The waist on my anvil does have a nice weld with no undercut. I checked the picture on the Ridgid website and no your new anvil is not going to look like that. However none of the food I have ever ordered looks nearly as good as in the advertising either. Without a picture I am having a hard time believing that the face has a 10mm deep depression. Please post a picture of this. If it is that far off they should have no problem taking it back and giving you a better anvil. They are advertised as having an induction hardened and ground face. If it is 10mm off something went terribly wrong in the grinding. Have you contacted them about this?

[rjones]

I'm pretty sure they are grinding marks and for $1800 someone at Peddinghaus should have used the flapper wheel. Do you really believe the picture Ridgid uses in the descriptions on the web sites is some kind of fake anvil made out of plastic or material other than steel? The picture may have been touched up electronically or the anvil may have been cleaned up for the picture but I think it's safe to say it's a real anvil.

I never said it had a depression. It had a peak in the middle (between the hardie and the pritchel holes) I will try to attach some photos with a two foot level on top of it which will prove that it's warped...probably from the heat treating process. I say had because I did return the first one to the dealer I purchased it from who claimed they were "all that way" but was kind enough to refund my money. I ordered another one from link removed. My new anvil was shipped directly from the Ridgid warehouse. It has the same sloppy workmanship as the first one but at least it's flat between the holes. I don't think you could get one that doesn't drop between the pritchel hole and the tip of the flat horn. It only has undercut in the corners of the weld. One side looks pretty good but the other side has what is called improper build up. The surface of a weld should be flush or a little above flush with the base metal. I know you'll probably say it doesn't affect the performance of the anvil. Well maybe it does maybe it doesn't. If the surface of a weld isn't properly done it makes what's underneath suspect.

Like I said in my first post. I love my anvil. The thing is I've learned that just being German doesn't always guarantee good craftsmanship. The only reason I posted my opinion to start with was because some of the other posts I read on here seemed to be either misleading or biased. Maybe after a few years I'll refuse to admit anything is wrong with the way my anvil was manufactured. Maybe my case is rare but I think Ridgid needs to improve their quality control and understand they can't ride the Peddinghaus name forever.

[kubiack]

Wow, That is pretty sad to see. I would not have believed that without seeing it, how did it pass quality control. If you are paying for an anvil with a ground face then that is unacceptable. The weld does look terrible also. I would send it back and get a refund. I have to agree with you for $1800 you should be getting a better product.

Can you show a shot of the makers mark on the other side of the anvil and one showing the face from above? I'd be interested in seeing more of your anvil.

I bought my anvil from Blacksmith Depot and have been really happy with it. lt did have the flats on the horn but the face is dead flat and the weld looks good. The only small complaint I can make about it is that the hardy hole was broched crooked by a few degress. The hole is square just not square with the sides.

I'll take a shot of mine with a level across the face and post it for comparisons sake.

Edited February 26, 2015 by kubiack

[kubiack]

Who was dealer you purchased and returned the first anvil to that said they were all like that? It might help others to know so they don't order on from them as well.

I would also contact Ridgid and send them some pictures of this anvil and let them know you a very unhappy with the product. A few yeas ago I had to send them a vise that needed repaired under warranty. It took a few phone calls and they ended up sending me one of their new forged steel vises when the one I sent in was a cast iron model. In my dealings with them they seem very concerned with the quality of their product and keeping me happy.

One more question. Why did you order the anvil from link removed instead of one of the blacksmith supply companies like link removed ? It seem like you would have a lot better chance of getting a quality product from them as their business is forging supplies. More than likely they keep anvils in stock and could check the quality before shipping it to you. The prices from some of them are less than link removed.

[rjones]

I don't really want to say which dealer it was but you would be very surprised. I've spent the last two months shopping for and buying my anvil; arguing with the dealer about what you see in the photos; returning it (100 mi round trip); looking at other brands of anvils; finally deciding to gamble on buying another one; and now I have my #12 and it's flat between the holes. I'm reasonably happy. I ordered it from link removed because I don't trust the dealers. I've only dealt with three of them and two have treated me as if I had sucker tattooed on my forehead. While shopping for an anvil I visited another dealer in my region and looked at one of his hofi style hammers. The next day I called and ordered one. I want go into the details but comparatively speaking the face of that hammer was more deformed than the anvil. I couldn't believe it. I paid $110 for a hammer I had to send back or fix myself. I know you're probably thinking everyone knows you have to dress the face of your hammer. No, it wasn't just dressing I had to do. I'll leave it at that.

When I called link removed they said they didn't have an anvil in stock but Ridgid would ship one straight to me from the plant. I knew then at least if I got a bad one again it would just be Ridgid to deal with. You need to check prices again. All the dealers are more than link removed was.

The pictures I posted were still on my phone. I think I have some of the other side with the Ridgid stamp on it in my computer. Probably have some of the top too. I was really proud of it when I first got it home. By the way, I have enough pictures and emails from both the dealer and Ridgid to prove everything I've written in these posts. I could care less if you believe it or not. I do however care about someone like me that finally decides to take the big step and plunk down the hard earned cash for what he believes to be a good quality anvil and winds up getting what I got. I'll post the pictures but I won't say anything else about it.

[rjones]

This is what I had on my phone. It is a peddinghaus anvil. The stamp is deeper on the new one. The border is prominent. I don't remember if I could even see it on the 1st one. 

[kubiack]

Well I did go out to the shop last night and put a metal yard stick across the face so I could take a picture to see how flat it was an mine does in fact have the same drop to the heal as yours does. I was quite surprised as I have not ever noticed it before. I did check the face with a steel rule when I got it but it was only a 12" and I had it on the main body, which is flat. The drop is not noticeable to the eye without a long straight edge.

The face appears to be ground in on continuous pass so I wonder how exactly they do the main body flat and then a drop in the flat horn in one set up. At least I can not see separate grinding marks for each section. The hardening would have been done before the grinding so if it did happen in heat treatment as you suggest they would have been able to see that the face of the main body ground before the horn. It seems they would have to a special set up to grind it this way. It makes me wonder if this is done intentionally of is really a mistake. If it is a mistake they have been making for a while as I think my anvil was bought 3 years ago.

Joe could you put a long straight edge across your older anvils and see if the also have the drop on the flat horn.

I did check prices again and link removed is still not the cheapest:
link removed: $2,265.00
link removed: $1,787.72
link removed: $1,775.00

If you don't trust the dealers and felt they treated you poorly you would be doing people here a service by stating which ones you had trouble with and why. I don't think there is anything wrong with relaying your personal experiences with a business. You have not set out to maliciously harm them but through the course of normal conversation you have been asked about it.

[kubiack]

Oh, nice looking shop. What's the story on the bellows, did you built it? I've always wondered how they compare to a hand crank blower but have not ever had the opportunity to use one.