Questions about fire by-laws and setting up a forge

[AlexM]

Hello,

I used to do my forging out in the country, so this was never really a problem.  I've recently just moved to Cambridge (right in the city) and the last thing I want is to set up a forge and have fire trucks at my house handing me a hefty fine for not adhering to local by-laws.  Don't get me wrong, I have every intention of setting up my forge safely, but some of the local by-laws are a bit overkill.

 

For example, "The use of chimineas and factory-built outdoor fireplaces or fire pits are considered to be open burning and would require a permit to be used."  Permits are $54/month (pricey), and they come with additional stipulations that are nearly impossible for most people to satisfy (i.e. "Fire MUST be 150M (492 ft.) from any building."  I don't know of many people who live in the city who have a property line that's almost 500 ft long, not to mention another 500ft away from a neighbouring building).

 

Info found here... http://www.cambridge.ca/fire_department/fire_prevention_division/open_burning

 

I was just wondering what experience any of you had in terms of setting up your forge within a municapality.  I'm an amateur, so normally I just wheel out my brake drum forge out of the shed, but I was hoping to build an enclosed, or semi-enclosed structure in the backyard.  If a chiminea is considered an open burning fire, I can't see how most forges (unless you're doing propane or something) are much different. 

 

Any advice?  I plan to talk to the local fire department, but I'm afraid they'll just tell me "no".  There has to be a way around this.

 

Thanks,

Alex

[Stephen Olivo]

There is no telling how each place will handle it.  You just need to talk to the people who would enforce it and make sure your good friends with all the nab ors.  The worst they can tell you is no…and then you just have another problem to solve.  It is better to know what is expected of you than to be surprised by it later. Good luck.  

 

P.s. I have had a visit on a particularly humid windless day from the local enforcers who in my case were very understanding and impressed.  They also saw that I had been taking safety into account.  I was lucky.  

[ThomasPowers]

Having a good sized ABC fire extinguisher prominantly displayed has let me get away with a terrible lot of stuff before---they see the extinguisher and think "He is taking proper precautions".   Making friends on the local fire department is worth *gold* if not platinum!

[DSW]

Propane or natural gas forge would be my 1st thought as it eliminates the smoke that will draw attention. That or an induction forge using electricity.

 

Biggest issue with coal will be while the coal is coking up and producing smoke. Once that is done, if you maintain your fire well I doubt there will be enough smoke to cause issues.

 

 

 

I might go at this from a slightly different view point. What are the codes applicable to charcoal barbeques and  what ones are applicable to wood/ coal stoves? If you are forging with charcoal, what is the difference between that and running a grill to cook say a turkey or pig that takes a long time? Smoke from a well stoked smoker is roughly about what my small forge puts out when I light it up. I'd think about treating a coal forge as a wood or coal stove. It's not "outside" if you have it in a "building" or "shed", though you may have to meet all applicable codes for permits etc to put up said shed.

 

 

You are already taking the correct route by knowing what you can and can not get away with, and knowing the code sections that apply. I've had local code enforcement officers try to bully and strong arm me about things in the past. When they tell me that I can't do something, I pull out the code book and ask for an explanation why a certain section that I'm in compliance with doesn't apply in my situation. Most times that immediately back track and try to cover their but when they are caught this way.

 

In the worst confrontation I had with the municipality over supposed "code" violations, I found out most of the problem was due to a pest up the street with nothing better to do with his life but complain. That and he was friends with the Fire Marshal/code officer. After jumping thru all their hoops and shooting down all their supposed violations with the code book ( I can't have "industrial gasses", but can have medical O2 in any size container for example, and they just don't enforce the part on propane since so many use it for gas grills, again with no restriction in size...) I went on the offensive. I told the Fire Marshal I knew who the "anonymous" complaint had come from. I told him if the pest complained one more time, since they enforce codes by complaint, I'd be the one complaining. I then listed over a dozen violations on his home business, including violations to federal handicap access laws they can't easily ignore. Changes to the building to comply with the regs would have meant major structural changes and that meant the building would have to come up to current code in all areas, including addition of sprinklers. My rough estimate was I'd cost him about $40K + in work. When they tried again to tell me I was "wrong". I simply started listing applicable sections of the code to back up my position. Funny, I haven't had a complain since in the last 6 years... Guess they figured out I wasn't going to play around.

 

 

I will admit there was one guy in the code office ( new junior officer) who was very helpful and was more than happy to assist me in making sure I wasn't in violation. When faced with conflicting sections of the code ( and there are often quite a few) he was more than willing to give me the benefit of the doubt most times, or explain why he felt one section took precedence over another. His general rule was that safety came 1st and as long as you were taking proper precautions, he was more than happy to see things your way, He was even willing to point out that I in fact could have a shed on my property, even though I'm on a corner lot with two "front" yards. The shed would have to be in one of the "front" yards, because I have insufficient room in the side and "back" yards due to set back requirements. He also surprised me when he said I could even have a shipping container in my yard if I wanted no matter how ugly it looked. he said the code makes no distinction in :"auxiliary"  structures, a Conex box, wooden prefab shed or permanent garage all are considered the same by code. He's not the only code officer I've found who was that way, but sadly they appear to be in the minority in way too many cases.

 

 

Good luck, I feel your pain.

[SoCal Dave]

Living in or near a city has it's limitations.  The AQMD told me that a coal forge is not allowed since there is an alternative which is a propane forge.  They don't care about the fine detail differences between the two.  So, you might be forced to acquire a propane forge and forge on and make great things.   

[Frosty]

Laws and codes are public record, you're going to have to research them in your area. Then talk to the people enforcing them as there is usually a LOT of room for interpretation. Developing good public relations skills is really important, you not only have to be on good terms with the neighbors but that won't be an issue if you aren't on good terms with the inspector.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[AlexM]

Thanks everyone for the info so far.  Hmmm... that's too bad.  I hate it when the law comes down to how well you know someone, or "it depends on who gets sent out to the call".  You never know if you'll get a reasonable guy who sees you're doing things safely or a by-the-book jerk.

 

I had thought about the charcoal grill angle.  I actually forge mostly with charcoal, and was thinking of building the forge like an outdoor bbq so I wouldn't necessarily have to tear it all down for re-sale purposes.  In most place, including Cambridge, the government does not restrict you from having an "open fire" so long as you are cooking with it.  I can always bring a baked potato out when forging, but of course, this is a bit of a work around and I was hoping for a more solid, less techincal solution.

 

Anyway, I'll see what I can do.  Thanks again for the info.

 

Alex

[DSW]

Yeah I avoid code officers if at all possible. I understand the reason behind them, and have no issues when safety is concerned. Just too many times these guys have had the power go to their heads. It's usually not as bad in smaller rural towns, but in the suburbs and city, it's more often about "politics" than it is about safety. Those elected don't like complaints. Since they hold power to hire and fire inspectors, or at least limit their budgets, too many times all the inspector is interested in is either making complaints go away whether they are legit or not, or they are out to gather revenue and win points that way.

 

Good luck.

[SoCal Dave]

I see it a little different.  The policemen, firemen, or code enforcement people usually respond from a complaint or call by a neighbor. They are required by law to enforce the law you are breaking.  It is part of their sworn duty to enforce the laws.  You want the laws to be enforce fairly and equally, with no favors given to their friends or the cute girl. Why break the law if you can avoid it.  I wouldn't pretend your forge is a BBQ.  The enforcing agent may feel you're trying to pull a fast one on them or just playing with semantics.  I don't like using just a gas forge but I never see the firemen in front my house.  Charcoal still makes smoke.  You are not going to win this one if you insist on a smoke making forge and that's the way Air Quality Board see's it. Good luck   

[ThomasPowers]

Well actually I want them to KNOW the law they are enforcing. Had an experience where for for multiple years I was told I was breaking code restoring my front porch to what it looked like 80 years ago.  However all the inspectors never could tell me what part of the code I was breaking and the values I had to meet....sold the house before I ever had that cleared up.

[Frosty]

Well actually I want them to KNOW the law they are enforcing. Had an experience where for for multiple years I was told I was breaking code restoring my front porch to what it looked like 80 years ago.  However all the inspectors never could tell me what part of the code I was breaking and the values I had to meet....sold the house before I ever had that cleared up.

 

This is a tough one to negotiate. For low level public servants, making a judgement call can be a career killer if someone in mid management or above doesn't like it. So, it's always safer to say NO. Holding their feet to the fire can be bad too seeing as there's bound to be something else they can hassle you over. It can be managed but it can be tricky to do so without shooting yourself in the foot.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Scott1193]

So I’ve been thinking of buying the cast masters propane furnace and I’m not sure if there are any laws that say I can’t do it in my garage. Does anyone know the laws or where I can find them for Ontario Canada?

[George N. M.]

Welcome aboard from 7500 feet (2284 meters) in SE Wyoming.  Glad to have you.

Where are you in Ontario?  It is a big Province.

Not sure about Canada but in the US fire and building codes are handled at a local level, usually.  I suspect it is similar in Canada.  Standards may be adopted at a Provicial level but are enforced at a local level.  So, contact your local building or zoning code office, where you would go to apply for a building permit.  Or, in your case, call your local fire department and ask about the fire code and inspections.  This sounds that it would be more likely under the jurisdiction of the Fire Marshal or the local equivalent.  

I suspect that you will need to satisfy various provisions of the International Fire Code such as distance from flammable walls, ventilation and/or venting, and having a certain size fire extinguisher nearby.

I'm not familiar with a Cast Masters propane furnace but if it is something that puts out a lot of flame (aka "dragon's breath") you will probably have to do a lot more to be in compliance than if it is more self contained.  I know that my Sandia type propane forge puts out ver little extra heat and flame and even though I don't have any codes to comply with here I am pretty cautious about fire safety becuae my father was a Captain on the Chicago Fore Department and that was drilled into me at an early age.  On the other hand, I have seen some propane forges that put our so much extra flame that I don't think that I would position them within 50 feet of anything that could catch fire.

Also, make sure that you identify yourself and your activity as "hobby metal working," not "blacksmithing."  Folk tend to think that blacksmithing is much more dangerous than working in metal as a hobby.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Scott, glad to have you. If you put your general location in the header you'll have a much better chance of meeting up with members within visiting distance.

Frosty The Lucky.

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning Scott,

Ontario Artist Blacksmiths Association are hosting CanIRON Xiii in Fergus, Ontario. Canada, third rock from the Sun. August 3-6, 2023. Check out caniron.ca  for details. It will be another 10 years before it comes back to Ontario.

Don't be shy, come and find out answers for questions you didn't know to ask. Hope to see you there!!

Neil