basher Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Theo, I tend to weld with what I would call a slight reducing atmosphere with flames out of the door. I brought the forge up to welding heat and choked the air flow down a little so that it is more reducing and just welded as normal. A reducing flame is colder than a neutral flame so in my set up you may have to play with how reducing you go so as to maintain the heat. It is unnerving welding without flux as a visual reference but it defiantly works. I cant really make give any advice after one go but I think I will be trying it more.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 My suggestion for those who choose the fluxless welding method is to buy a thermocouple and a pid temp reader (about $80. total) and keep track of your successes and failures at varying temps. In my nat gas forge, with the placement of the thermocouple (which can vary greatly in an inch), I've found that 2325-2330 seems to work well for me. It's pretty subjective. That being said, no one seems to know what the low temp/soak time is for a successful weld. Soak time seems to play a major part in this welding. I've been welding w/o grinding the mill scale for the first weld. Subsequent welds seem to need having the forge scale removed, then it's dry from there. The cleanliness from not using flux is a welcome adventure. John Emmerling Gearhart Ironwerks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 HIs first post, with the links that were removed appeard to be a sales pitch more than informational, but I will wait to see what this leads into, because like Baster, I too want to know more. also note that 2300 F is too high for working with most blade steels. Steve, 2300 F is a very subjective figure determined where the thermocouple is placed in the forge. If I place it from the top, on the floor or in from the side, the readings are different. A movement of an inch can make a huge difference. My suggestion is to place it in the same position and work from there. (I remove the thermocouple when not welding). I haven't yet welded D2, but have welded 1095/L6/5160/52100 as that is my comfort zone. I have dry (tig around) welded stainless/1095 san mai billets and soaked them for 10-12 mins before hammering. For those getting into this, a reducing atmosphere and adequate soak times are imperative, plus heat control using a pid and thermocouple for reference. I control mine manually and now use a needle valve for the gas. That being said, Mark Aspery usually welds mild steel in a coke forge, so the parameters are vastly different. Degrees stated usually come from a book unless actually verifiable by a controlled forge. John Emmerling Gearhart Ironwerks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Currently I have too many paid jobs I need to finish to risk an experiment, but with the feedbak of successfull trials I see here, I need to try this. Flux cost money and the fumes are not good either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Steve, Welcome to the dark side! I knew it was in you... :) John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 lol no matter I will still tell beginners to make things as easy as possible to start out, and use a flux, but things may change later. I am still supprised that WD40 works lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Steve, Why not start beginners with the premise that flux is a contaminant (Bob Kramer) and that heat/soak time is your friend. That's pretty much blacksmith welding no matter what the parameters. Flux is a crutch. Yes, it may be necessary in some instances, but I think folks should learn from the beginning to learn to weld w/o it as much as possible. Btw, thanks for your input. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 20 plus years, and I still have a lot to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Yeah, me too. A little nippy your way? Snow on the beach here. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eseemann Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 There is also a better thread than this on the bladesmiths forum in the hot work section . quite a few people posting who have done this. I wont post a link. This site does not exist in a vacuum and is far from the be all and end all as far as blade work is concerned. I we could manage a forge that works in a vacuum (induction maybe?) now that would be something. (silly thought) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 not silly at all, Ti billets are welded in a furnace with the injection of an inert-gas to displace any OXY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WraithsNinja Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 So I've recently heard of a way to forge weld caled dry welding. Where you prepare the billet as usual then mechanically weld up the seams then bring to welding temp and forge weld, Kinda like putting cable in a stainless pipe. My question is would this process reduce the chances of slag inclusions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 You're going to have to post a link. "Dry welding" is a professional term meaning either a technique for welding underwater and keeping the weld dry, OR "Hyperbaric Welding" Meaning the weld is performed in a chamber at a high psi atmosphere of the desired gas(es). Unless a person has figured out how to forge weld underwater, that use of the term doesn't fit. Otherwise we're always "Forge Welding dry." Not hyperbaric though, so I guess that use of the term is out too. Need more info or all you get is funnin at. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WraithsNinja Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 That must be what he called it, it was just mig welding up the seams of the billet then forge welding as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 So I've recently heard of a way to forge weld caled dry welding. Where you prepare the billet as usual then mechanically weld up the seams then bring to welding temp and forge weld, Kinda like putting cable in a stainless pipe. My question is would this process reduce the chances of slag inclusions? Sure, as you're not adding any contaminants such as flux to trap unwanted particles. Assuming your forge is temp controlled and soak time is adequate, welding is easy and clean. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will52100 Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 I've tried fluxless welding in my gas forges with good results. I find what works best for me is that I grind the pieces clean and stack and weld the ends and rod on one end. Then a dip in diesel fuel and into the forge. After welding and drawing out I'll cut on the chop saw and surface grind, then repeat. That's for 1084 and 15&20. When I'm playing with "frontier" Damascus, IE, everything including the kitchen sink, I use flux, partially due to less cleaning and flatting, partially due to using ball and roller bearings in the mix, think pieces of files, ball bearings, rake teeth, part of an old wrench, pieces of saw blade, ect. When I was first learning to forge weld Damascus I had issues every now and again, but haven't had any real issues in the last 10 years with the exception of a feather patter blade I did not long ago. It wasn't from inclusions, the high nickel steel didn't like to weld to itself. My thoughts on flux is that it lets you weld less than perfectly clean steel together, helps melt rust back into iron and squeeze impurities out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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