Spruce Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Hey all - I recently asked a question about making wedding rings over in the blacksmithing general forum, and people posted up some replies about mokume gane - this stuff is awesome! Today I tried messing around with a stack of quarters, and had decent success - not a perfect weld - got it too hot in my forge, but I still got two decent sized billets out of the process. I can't wait to see what the look like once shaped and polished. After I practice on quarters and the like, I want to move up to some different metals - stuff which won't corrode or stain the skin over time. What I would like to achieve would be some cool patterns, of subtley different metals ie not silver and gold. Something like the image below (at least for pattern and colors - I want to shape it differently for my purpose). Can anyone enlighten me as to what two metals might make a pattern similar to this one? Preferably two metals which won't corrode with prolonged contact to the skin. Thanks in advance! Photo and The ring is the work of James Binnion. It is 14k palladium white gold and sterling silver Photo SHOULD have been credited to its owner, or not been used Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 The very distinct craterlike pattern on that ring is done mechanically with a burr tool or something similar to expose layers in an otherwise unaltered or minimally altered stack formed into a ring shape. The selection of metals and patina applied to change the way they look will determine the coloration. If you look at the inside of the ring it appears (on my phone at any rate...) that this is an example of a silver lined interior, or some other inert metal liner. Impossible to say exactly what the metals involved in that particular piece are just by visual inspection, but if you can provide us with the website of the craftsman that produced it we can check it out. It's also common courtesy (and site guidelines) to credit the maker of a piece and not hoist someone else's work without their permission. I think I have seen that ring before, but I dont remember where online. What do you mean by 'shape it differently' btw? You shooting for a square, hexagon, bottom weighted to prevent twisting type rather than circular? Doesn't really affect the process as much, just curious. Sterling silver is my metal of preference, so I'll own up to a bias :) but it's a very economical and fairly inert metal, but it is fairly soft, so really deep relief like your example may wear more quickly on the edges. It can also he temperamental to forge, so expect a learning curve. Harder inert metals are more precious and more expensive, and may require much more controlled environments to achieve the bond. Get some pics of your billets and your patterning process up here too :) If you find yourself wanting more detailed info "the" book would be Steve Midget's Mokume Gane; A comprehensive study. But good luck getting a copy, unless you read German = check local libraries for a copy or if they can order it via ILL. The second best (and affordable, 17-20$ on amazon) is Ian Ferguson's Mokume Gane (jewelry handbooks series), it has whole chapters for combinations of metals, different patinas, and lots of charts detailing bonding conditions, compatabilities and working characteristics of the bonded stacks. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted September 13, 2013 Author Share Posted September 13, 2013 Hey Chinobi Thanks for the info and links - will look into those for sure. At least it gives me some idea what direction to go in. As for the photo - I would credit it, but I don't know whose work it is - I found it in the middle of another iforgeiron thread, and the person who posted it over there didn't credit it either. I haven't seen it in any of my google image searching (although I bet its there - I haven't searched super hard), so short of searching the entire internet, I don't know how to credit it. Chinobi - with your experience in silver, can you recommend metals which will give an effect of multiple layers of silver laminated together? Basically I don't want copper or gold or the like - I like that layered silver look. But, if I just layer several pieces of silver, will the pattern show up? Or will it all blend together and look like one solid piece of metal? Perhaps sterling silver, with a harder type of silver, so that the acid will eat away the sterling quicker than the harder silver? As for the shape of the rings - I think I'll make my band pretty similar - just a band. But for hers, I don't want a seamless or washer type ring. Instead I'm thinking of drawing it out, and bending it around, and letting the two ends overlap each other, with some space in between, to set something - mostly likely some pretty wood. Probably purple heart and maybe bubinga - not sure yet. I've done a lot more woodworking than metal working, and the two of us are trying to set up a wood and metal shop, so it makes for an apt ring. We'll see though - I'm going to play around with quarters and things to get the hang of the process and see what I can come up with. I'll post photos once I have some OK looking product. To make the billet I made yesterday, I used the clamp technique - four bolts holding together two metal plates, with the stack of quarters in between, and tossed it in my forge. I was trying to watch it closely, but all of a sudden it got to melting point, and a lot of the nickel started to run - I pulled it out quick, and gave it a couple whacks with my hammer. Then took it out of the clamp, reheated it, hit it some more, then started forming. But, I know I lost a lot of my nickel, and had one delamination right in the middle of the billet. It was a decent sized billet though, so the two pieces which were left were still workable, and drew them out, and bent them into rings - one with a twist, one without. What method do you use for welding your silver together Chinobi? Spruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 ah, that would be why it looks familiar then :) iv pretty much read this entire subforum at least once XD when bonding metals you want to have a difference in the two (or more) metals in use in order for your surface finish and patina to show up differently. if you take two pieces of the same species of wood and apply the same stain at the same rate to both, they will look identical. if there is any banding that shows up from a sterling/sterling stack it would be indicative of oxides or other impurities concentrated between the layers rather than the normal differences in alloy. you could conceivably go sterling silver and fine silver, or sterling and a nickel alloy, or find some argentium silver, though I don't know how much the price varies for that one. look up tension setting for rings, that's pretty much what you are describing with the open ended ring (like a split washer) and a stone or chunk of wood held in place by the ends of the ring. you have the basic process for the torque plates right, but rather than consolidating with short, sharp impact from the hammer see if you can fit it in a vice and give it a squeeze to set the bond. after that you can start to forge it gently, be patient, you don't need to sledge it into shape in one heat, that much stress can shear even perfect bonds. judging from my overcooked quarter stacks I would be very surprised if you lost your nickel but not the copper due to overheating. keep a very close eye on it when you are getting close to the melting point of the metals, look for a sweaty looking edge, and if you drag a sharp poker along one of the seams between the coins and the seam looks shiny you are there. one step you skipped making your rings (or just didn't write up), your twisted ring is not showing its full potential. take your bar, twist it, then cut it in half lengthwise with a saw to reveal the ubiquitous star pattern, otherwise you just made a candycane :) I was thinking yesterday that I may have been unclear though, silver is my favorite metal, but I have not put that into a mokume stack yet, so I really cant speak for the specific idiosyncrasies of working it in mokume aside from what I have researched and seen other people do, my apologies =/ check out this other thread too, he has a very similar situation but has been experimenting with silver and we have probably addressed many of the question you have or are about to have as well :) '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 14, 2013 Share Posted September 14, 2013 Spruce: Pattern development and color contrast are two different things. To get good color contrasts you have to use metals different enough they will show contrast in the finished product. Pattern development is done by exposing the layers after manipulating them. There are different methods of manipulating the layers, twisting rolling, folding, etc. manipulate the layers in relation to each other and the surface. Or you can incise then flatten, cutting through layers and flattening them expose them and form them. OR you can flatten them, then incise or cut to expose them. For instance a simple twist pattern is developed by first welding up the billet, refine it into a uniform bar, twist it as desired. Reform it into a bar, saw split it. what you have now are two billets with mirror patterns on the faces facing each other. If you finish the outside you won't get the desired pattern and what you do get won't be of good contrast. Finish the inside and you'll get the classic twist pattern with well exposed layers and bounderies. Another example is incise and flatten. Weld your basic billet and refine it into a bar, now incise it across the width with say a burr, though a saw or gouge work nicely too but to different effect. Now flatten it to uniform thickness and refine it into your blank. When you finish the developed surface you will find the layers exposed to good definition. Depending on how you incised the billet will determine the finished pattern. Say you Made close incisions with a small radius burr, the finished patter might well be described as a "ladder" pattern. If you use a larger radius burr more widely spaced the finish pattern may look like ocean waves at the beach. You can incise across in a sine wave pattern, or a chevron or diagonals, etc. OR you can cut circles or bars with wide spots in the center or. . . The possibilities are only as limited as your imagination and ability. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted September 15, 2013 Author Share Posted September 15, 2013 Copy that Frosty - I guess my main question is basically, what metals give pretty subtle contrast? I understand about pattern development, and plan on playing around until I get the pattern I like - I think it will probably just be plain old layered mokume gane, with stock removal to expose the layers. What I'm trying to achieve however, is basically the wavy silver on silver pattern - not silver with gold or copper or something else. So can anyone tell me what metals to use to get a silver on silver type pattern, but which will still show up when you look close-ish - and preferably metals which will work well over the years in a ring? Will hopefully get back to playing around tomorrow and see what I can figure out. Spruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Fine silver stacked with nickel (avoid nickel alloys with zinc) will give you a pretty subtle contrast in color and not break the bank if it goes awry :) You can mitigate potential problems with metal allergies if you layer the stack such that the silver is the top and bottom layer, which will have the most contact in a configuration like the pic you posted earlier. Combinations of nickel and silver and alloys therein are listed as being difficult to bond and/or work(flatten etc) depending on the specific combination. So expect some challenge there :) Platinum, palladium and white gold are all also silvery white metals but are not as readily available and are much more costly. They may also require a much more strictly controlled bonding environment to prevent oxide intrusion. Stainless steel would work (304 and 326 according to Ferguson), but it is much harder to work and is much stiffer than the silver so the silver will extrude at the edges and must be accounted for. Stainless also required a special atmosphere to bond in as it reacts with hydrogen and nitrogen at bonding temps You could also try a fine silver/sterling silver stack, though I don't know if that will provide enough contrast, perhaps if you target the copper in the sterling with your patina and finish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted September 15, 2013 Author Share Posted September 15, 2013 Chinobi - thanks again for an awesome response! That gives me some great food for thought, and some stuff to work towards. I've started trying to get my hands on Fergusons book and Midgett's - I think I can get them both through the ILL - will find out for sure on Monday. Very psyched to get my hands on those! Spruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Happy to help :) Like I said, good luck getting midget's, but ferguson's can be had from amazon for 20$, I was referencing my copy when I wrote that too, so there's a wealth of good information in it. Similarly, Jay Kidwell has written two technical papers on the subject, he recent taught a class in Los Angeles that I made bloody sure i was on the list for, and he provided us with a printed package containing said papers, so perhaps with some applied googling you could chase down a copy of those as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 16, 2013 Share Posted September 16, 2013 Copy that Frosty - I guess my main question is basically, what metals give pretty subtle contrast? I understand about pattern development, and plan on playing around until I get the pattern I like - I think it will probably just be plain old layered mokume gane, with stock removal to expose the layers. What I'm trying to achieve however, is basically the wavy silver on silver pattern - not silver with gold or copper or something else. So can anyone tell me what metals to use to get a silver on silver type pattern, but which will still show up when you look close-ish - and preferably metals which will work well over the years in a ring? Will hopefully get back to playing around tomorrow and see what I can figure out. Spruce Silver and white gold. The silver, depending on alloy, will tarnish or etch from muted silver to gray. The white gold will remain silver colored. My mokume gane wedding ring is White gold, red gold, yellow gold and silver. The white gold and silver are like a hard pencil streak on silver. If you want more subtle contrast you want different grades of white gold. I'd ask a jeweler or gold smith about specifics of alloy and color. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 Hmm - Leaning towards working with silver, and either nickel or white gold. Chinobi - you say to stay away from nickel alloyed with zinc - so far all nickel sheet I've found is alloyed with zinc. Will this definitely not work? Can you point me towards a source of usable zinc? White gold and silver would be the ideal combination - I'm just scared to screw up with white gold... spruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 practice a LOT before you commit to the 'real' metals :) well, putting silver next to brass is listed as a huge no-no because of the potential for low temperature phases that effectively create silver solder that melts out way before you get up to bonding temp for anything else. nickel with zinc is said to 'aggressively corrode' adjacent silver, or something similarly vague and ominous. not having tried it myself I really cant say with any degree of confidence what exactly will happen. you CAN bond brass and silver for instance, you just need to be REALLY on top of your temperature control and not overheat, which might mean excluding other metals with higher bonding points as well, so by extension you should be able to do the silver/nickel silver stack if you really babysit it as well. YMMV =/ good point about general 'nickel silver' containing zinc though, I didn't even think about that. don't have much time so I didn't tear the internet apart, but if you check out onlinemetals.com they have at least 3 grades of nickel that do not contain zinc, their 200, 400, and 600 alloys. I didn't look at the rest, and you probably don't want to mess with the monel/Inconel alloys, stuff is practically bulletproof so it would be a real chore to work with. a few of the retailers of nickel silver on amazon don't list the alloy, so I dunno what to say there other than contact the supplier. I need to doublecheck the one that I bought for that too so I don't forget and screw that up myself! Edit: so the stuff I bought off amazon a while ago was nickel 400, which is nominally 32% copper, a very small percentage of trace metals, and the rest listed as 'Ni + Co' so im hoping that its not a significant percentage of cobalt.... but it is zinc free (yay!) http://www.onlinemetals.com/show_chems.cfm?pid=10638&temp_type=write&alloy=400&id=878&top_cat=0 monsterslayer.com seems to only have 17% zinc, and thunderbirdsupply doesn't list alloy =/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted September 22, 2013 Author Share Posted September 22, 2013 Been searching around trying to find a place to buy my nickel from - had to request a quote from onlinemetals.com. Couldn't seem to find any which I could just order a certain sized piece from, which were also zinc free. Anyway, hopefully should have metal, and some other odds and ends on the way. In the meantime, I've been practicing with quarters some more. I don't have any pictures of my first billets and rings, but here is the one I made today: Made from a few bucks worth of quarter like objects, drawn out - I tried cutting grooves into the billet, then drawing out more and more, down to ring size, but it doesn't seem to have done much to the pattern. The above pic is a band around the size I want, and I have enough left over from the billet to make two rings easily of my wife's size, to play around with and see what I like the look of. I'm still not sure about the soldered joint yet - might order a plug cutter, might not. Thoughts? Spruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted September 22, 2013 Author Share Posted September 22, 2013 Also, the above is without any etching or patinaing at all. Right now it's sitting in vinegar, to bring out the definition some more. Any thoughts on different finish techniques for quarter stacks? Man, I'll be glad when these books come in - I hate not being able to look up the answer to these basic questions. Thanks again, Spruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted September 22, 2013 Share Posted September 22, 2013 Nice job on that ring, very smooth :) I can't check right now but also atlasmetals sells online, iv dealt with them before but I didn't look at their offerings for nickel. From the unzoomed pic on my phone I can still see the solder seam so you might want to take a little more time to ensure that joint is super flat and tight, that will keep the line of solder down to a minimum, and if the corners are sharp you won't have a big fillet of solder showing at the edges because the corners were farther apart than the faces. Not that my opinion has any bearing here, but I like the idea of the tension setting you mentioned earlier more than the solid ring, and you avoid the need for a seam entirely :) Give us some more detail on what you did to groove the billet and flatten it out, that's the textbook definition of the process, so if that didn't work then I have to question the method = The plug cutter (circular punch and die set to knock holes in sheet right?) can create ring shaped blanks but unless you do some pretty crafty forging your layers and therefore your pattern will be on edge when worn, could be fun to play with though, maybe you can give the washer of metal a twist and then grind off half the width from the outside, giving you stripes that bend into the star and back into stripes? A light etch to give the different metals in play a different surface finish will go a long way towards a visible pattern, mirror on mirror is really hard to see even in copper and brass stacks, but pickle it for a few minutes and BAM, pattern! Gives the patina a better surface to react with too. All that patina info will be available in the books you have coming, an exists elsewhere on the site (alchemy and formula section IIRC) so I won't even try to recreate it. You mention bookS as well, what all did you send for if u may ask? You find anything else that seems worth reading please let me(us) know! Anyway, gotta go, copper to beat on and it's far away, good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted September 23, 2013 Author Share Posted September 23, 2013 Yeah, I wasn't super happy about my solder seam, or very worried about it either though - since these are just practice quarter stacks, and can't really be worn without turning your finger green anyway, I was more concerned about the process and how the patterns would come out etc. rather than achieving a perfect finish. I hammered that sucker down, drew it out, bent it around, silver soldered it, hit it super quick with a grinding disc on a dremel, then a 220 flap wheel on the dremel, and called it good. I just have Ferguson's coming, and Midgett's as well supposedly. We'll see how successful the ILL is, but the librarian said it should come in a couple of weeks. I've seen some neat videos of people using washers, made with a disc cutter, to get some cool results. Basically, I think you can draw your washer down over a ring mandrel, which sort of turns it flat, instead of having your pattern on edge. As you get close to the size you want, you take it off the mandrel, and put it on again, upside down, so that it doesn't end up in a cone shape matching your mandrel. At least that's the theory anyway - I've yet to actually try it... Spruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 i figured that's what you were thinking, I meant to go back and add that those cutters are not designed for as thick a ring as your soldered band! speaking of your practice stacks and fingers turning green, give your fiancé that ring to wear for a while and see how she reacts to it, that way you can give it some time to wear in and see how it handles while you are still practicing and haven't committed to your final metals or final product. metal reactions are always something to keep in mind, but they are not tremendously common. plus, you can always line the inside with sterling or fine silver as a barrier if it comes down to it. the flattened washer method (I presume you saw that video that was basically an advertisement for that punch set and their mokume sheet metal?) will leave you with a fairly thin band, so I don't know if that's what you had in mind, but if you were still intent on setting anything into it that might be more difficult than a thicker band. you can practice that method with quarters as well, it does work, but use a soft mallet or you will beat all the definition off the coin, or with mokume you might end up thinning it out more than you want through the process. if it seems like its starting to fight you a lot don't be afraid to anneal it, saves stresses on the metal and you don't need to hammer with as much force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted September 23, 2013 Author Share Posted September 23, 2013 Btw chinobi, do you have any info on putting silver on the inside? I'm hoping its in the books I have coming, but so far I haven't found a ton of info on it. Do you electroplate it, then sand off the outside? Or just start with silver on the bottom and try to keep it there throughout the process? Or is there another method to get it on the inside as one of the last steps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted September 24, 2013 Share Posted September 24, 2013 ferguson doesn't mention that, I have no idea if midget covers it. its just a general jewelry making technique, not really specific to mokume, if you do put silver as the last layer you just need to make sure that you only pattern the opposite side, and only forge the billet at black heat. I think its just soldered on. make a ring from a piece of sheet silver the same width as the intended ring and fit it tightly to the inside of the mokume ring, shouldn't need to solder the silver 'sleeve' closed, but it wouldn't really hurt, then solder that to the inside of the mokume. foriegn link deleted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted November 5, 2013 Author Share Posted November 5, 2013 Alrighty - back in the land of the living after a month of hell working a turnaround at a refinery - so, back to smithing and mokume! I haven't fully decided what I'm going to do, but I've been thinking about putting a silver lining inside whatever ring I do make, to ensure there's no corrosion or skin problems - I thought there was a link posted at one point in this forum on a method of doing that??? Any info or places to look would be great. I assume it's a matter of taking some sheet silver, folding it around the inside of the ring, and then soldering the whole thing together, then sanding down the excess solder etc. But, I really haven't done much soldering and things like that, so I'm kind of unfamiliar with how easy it is to get solder to flow through something like that. Doesn't seem too bad, but what do I know??? Also, I got my hands on a copy of Midget's book - what a trove of information that is! Very excited to get back into the garage and start playing around. Thanks again, Spruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 you are now firmly ensconced at the top of my 'least favorite people' list!!! how did you get midget's book and how much did you pay for it? side note to the mods and to address the question of the link, my bad :) I had put a link to a tutorial online to add said silver sleeve but it has been removed. so again, my apologies to both sides =/ I have since forgotten what it was too so I cant tell you what to google to get back there, maybe if we ask a mod real nicely they will PM it to one of us as a reminder? iv actually got another bar of twisted mokume ready to be sawn in half and worked with, maybe ill set that up to get an inner liner and take some pics so we can have an IFI local reference. I make no promises though because from now til the middle of December is going to be nuts and middle of December im on the other side of the world until almost new years. the way you describe is one method of doing it. if you do a soldered band for the mokume itself you can make life easier and solder the backing on with hard solder before you bend it into a ring shape from a flat bar, clean up your edging, fit and solder it together as one piece with medium or easy solder so you don't wreck the prior join. the method of construction of your ring itself will dictate largely what the easiest way to add the backing will be. glad to have you back :) been getting slow in this section of late =/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 There is no trouble with revelant links. Relavant links are allowed, such as "where can I find Steve Midgets book". but when a link is no longer valid, if we notice, we remove it. Since one of the authors you discussed is an IFI member, perhaps he can chime in. If not, there are a few other Mokume web sites listed in the knife sections supplier lists that may help. Jim Binnion as well as "Shining Wave" are listed. Some of the supply houses also sell mokume books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 I have no gripe with the link being removed, Steve, it was a link to a general jewelry making tutorial hosted on somebody else's site totally unrelated to mokume, which does fly in the face of the 'no outside links' clause. my fault for forgetting that in my haste to chase down something relevant and share it. if said link went 404 in the meantime then even better reason to remove it, that's why offsite linking is frowned upon. I was merely curious as to where Spruce sourced his copy, as I have seen it available for less than 400$ only once in the year+ that I have been looking (aside from the german version). I have already been up and down the internet and into pretty much every bookstore in the cities I work in and live in, as well as used bookstores and outdoor book sales. I just haven't taken the time to see if I can ILL it at the library, as I would rather own a copy than have to read such a large book quickly and worry about damaging it. I will skim the knife supply section when I finish my lunch, wouldn't think to look there otherwise, so thank you for the heads up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted November 6, 2013 Author Share Posted November 6, 2013 Well, if someone knows of the link and PMs it to me, then great. If not, oh well, there's plenty of info out there, I'm sure I'll survive. I do remember it being pretty neat though. Chinobi - I got a copy of Midget's book through ILL - not ideal, but at least I have the info available for a while. I may copy a section or two to get me by the next few weeks, but after seeing the book, I can say that if I keep working with mokume, it is worth paying a few hundred for. In general I think it kind of sucks to pay that much for a book, but if you think of it like a quality tool, it makes it feel better - you would pay a few hundred for a nice forge or anvil or something, so why not the knowledge on how to use them? In any case, what I need right now is to try and make my wedding bands - my future in mokume after that is yet to be determined... but I can say that it is super fun and I hope to explore it more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted November 6, 2013 Author Share Posted November 6, 2013 Oh, and Chinobi - you should definitely make a ring with a silver liner and do a write up about it - that would be super helpful! Spruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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