Some newbie questions

[Chinobi]

thanks for the motivation, ill see what I can do :)

 

I agree about the tools and investments, but even 'out of print' anvils can be had for reasonable amounts, and far far cheaper than new for the most part.  out of print books on the other hand, not so much :'(

 

out of curiosity have you decided on your metals for the final product yet?

[Spruce]

I'm going to try nickel and sterling silver - we'll see how it goes...  If it doesn't work, or it wears prematurely or whatever, then so be it - all part of the game as far as myself and the misses are concerned.  That being said, I sure hope it goes well:)  Going with straight bands, nothing set in them, probably a plain old flat pattern, and lined with sterling silver, assuming I can figure that step out.  Will play around with my quarter stacks some more once the silver comes in.  Also, hopefully you have gone through the learning curve before then, and I can just look at your pictures and write up, to save me screwing up a few times...:)

 

Spruce

[Chinobi]

figure out what pattern you want to work with and practice that a few times to get it right and make sure it will read clearly on a thin band like a ring.  I just split a bar last night that I definitely should have twisted more than one revolution.  so the practice will help you work out the bugs in the process before you get to the real metals.

[Chinobi]

BTW there is a parallel discussion of lining rings with silver developing in Alchemy and Formula:

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[jbin]

The ring in the original post is my work. It is 14k palladium white gold and sterling silver.

 

 

Credit has been added to the starting post,  we would have corrected this sooner had we known.

[Chinobi]

Thank you James, I thought it looked extremely similar to your CS1E000-6 Canyon Pattern, I just never connected the dots to point it out.

 

Your work is inspiring and humbling all at the same time :) I hope I can raise my craft to a fraction of what you have achieved some day.

[jbin]

Fine silver stacked with nickel (avoid nickel alloys with zinc) will give you a pretty subtle contrast in color and not break the bank if it goes awry :) You can mitigate potential problems with metal allergies if you layer the stack such that the silver is the top and bottom layer, which will have the most contact in a configuration like the pic you posted earlier. Combinations of nickel and silver and alloys therein are listed as being difficult to bond and/or work(flatten etc) depending on the specific combination. So expect some challenge there :)

 

FWIW there are two types of copper nickel alloys Nickel Silvers and Cupro Nickels. Cupro Nickel alloys are those where nickel is the main alloying component after copper and there are fairly small amounts of other elements in the alloy. Nickel Silvers are those where the main alloying component after copper is nickel but closely followed by zinc in percentage.  You will have a XXXX of a time finding much in the way of cupro nickel sheet in the quantities we would buy. Nickel silvers are more available. mostly C75200  Cu65,Ni18,Zn balance
http://www.copper.org/resources/properties/db/basic-search.php?uns-search=C75200&submit-single-alloys=Display.

If someone truly has a nickel sensitization that causes contact dermatitis "nickel allergy" stacking order will not matter they will still end up reacting to it.



 

Nickel and silver don't like each other if you take pure silver and pure nickel and melt them in a crucible you will observe that the silver will melt first and all the nickel will be floating on the surface of the melt. As you increase the heat the nickel will eventually melt but they will not mix you will have a layer of molten nickel floating on top of the molten silver. If you allow it to cool it will end up with the nickel and silver segregated with the nickel on top and the silver on the bottom.

Once you add copper to the mix the dynamics change and you will get some alloying of the nickel into the silver but it still will be a two phase alloy ( at room temperature there will be two different crystals in the alloy rather than a homogenous mix of all components) where one phase is mostly silver with some copper and a tiny amount of nickel the second phase will be mostly copper with the rest of the nickel in it and a small amount of silver.

The combination of nickel silver and ether sterling or fine silver will work quite well if you are forge welding your mokume.

 

[jbin]

Thank you James, I thought it looked extremely similar to your CS1E000-6 Canyon Pattern, I just never connected the dots to point it out.

 

Your work is inspiring and humbling all at the same time :) I hope I can raise my craft to a fraction of what you have achieved some day.

 Thank you, I think it just takes being so stubborn that when you run into a wall in your way you just get up and take another run at it again and again till you figure out how to make it work

  :-)

[Chinobi]

That is definitely what it feels like at times!  Thank you for the info on nickel and silver behavior and the link to the copper alloy page, I will definitely be spending some time there in the near future :)

 

If I may seize the opportunity of your advise, have you observed any undesired eutectic low temperature phases between zinc bearing nickel silver(or brass for that matter) and sterling/fine silver stacks?  I did a limited experiment with zinc bearing brass and silver but it was inconclusive (operator error <_< ) as to the extent of the interaction.

[jbin]

Stay below 1375F when silver brass goes bad it is real ugly  ;)  Nickel silver/Sterling is a fairly well behaved combo. You can take it up to the point where the sterling begins to shine for a liquid phase bond. 

This is a reject piece of brass sterling because of the blemishes from not getting all the cuts to the surface.

 

http://www.iforgeiron.com/gallery/image/37827-img-2088/

[Chinobi]

That takes a lot of the uncertainty out of it! Thank you!

[Spruce]

Wow - glad I checked back - awesome information jbin!  And awesome work - if I could make a ring look anything close to the one I first posted I would be ecstatic.  I've gotten pretty good at my quarter stack mokume - have no trouble forming a billet now, and drawing out into a long thin piece which I can make into a band (man, I would love to get a rolling mill - I'm forging it out).  But, I haven't gotten my pattern to look quite like I want it - getting closer every time.  Might I ask what you did to achieve such an awesome pattern in the ring posted above?  I'm getting close using the ladder technique - cutting grooves out of my billet every so often, but I think I've been overdoing it - I think I need to cut shallower.

 

I am really glad to hear about the nickel silver and sterling silver working well together - that is what I am hopefully going to use... as long as I can get it to bond.  Will be trying within the next few days...

 

Spruce

[Chinobi]

I know what you mean, a rolling mill would be so amazing XD

The canyon pattern is formed by using a burr tool to carve out pits and depressions in the surface to expose the layers in a way that looks like topography. I think that process was described in more detail in the longer thread just titled 'Mokume gane' I think fe-wood started it, look on page 2 IIRC.

I'm not certain about the exact process James used to set it up to be seamless, but I would form it into a flat sheet about 3/16" thick and punch, drill or pierce a hole and cut a circle around it to form a washer shape. Then you can form it into a ring on a mandrel by hammering with a soft face hammer. It's next to impossible to describe cleanly in text, I know i referenced a YouTube video about the process using quarters at some point before, its called 'Tutorial: Turn a quarter into a ring!', check that out.

Edit: missed the part about cut depth, don't cut more than 1/3 of the current thickness of your stack/billet/sheet.

Edit 2: make sure you keep an eye on your cut geometry as well, don't leave a share V in the bottom to prevent developing a stress riser that can cause cracking, you want a rounded bottom. Also avoid ending up with vertical or undercut side walls to prevent them from folding over when you flatten and creating cold shuts that can disrupt patterning, cause sharp flaps in the finished product, and can propagate oxide inclusions that can spread into adjacent layer seams and cause them to fail as well.

This is all moot of course if you are practicing the canyon pattern, but will be useful for general Mokume development

[Spruce]

Alright - spent the last couple of days playing around in the garage working on the wedding rings, as well as a couple other odds and ends.  Here are the fruits of my labor:

 

 

The billet:

 

 

I used sterling silver and nickel.  9 layers, 5 nickel and 4 silver, sandwiched in a bolt plate assembly and bonded in a gas forge.  I found it actually bonded a little easier than the quarter stacks I've been practicing on.  But, it definitely didn't work as easily - working from a black heat is a pain - a roll mill would have made life much easier.  After a while though it started to act like one piece and started moving really nicely - at first it was pretty hard though - didnt' get much movement between heats and I had to heat it up often.  The original strips were 1/2" by 3" and the stack was about 1/2" high.  Drew it out with a hammer and anvil till it was about 6 or 7 inches long, at a guess, sanded flat with a benchtop belt sander.  As it got thin I started making repeated cuts across it and then hammering it smooth again.  The last time I made a series of Xs across it - I think this was the key.  In fact, I'm not sure how much good my earlier cuts even did.  I think i could have forged it down to almost its final thickness, cut my Xs even more intricately, an then forged smooth.  Will tr that next time.  Made inner liners out of 22 gauge sterling, hard soldered together, and dressed on the ring mandrel.  Did the same for the mokume, and sized them so that I had to hammer the liner into the mokume.  Medium soldered them together.  Then sanded and polished using a variety of different things, but I did order a POS spindle lathe, which made life much much easier.  Used an inside ring mandrel, and sanded down to 400 grit.  

 

Very happy with the outcome, although the first ring I made I sized a little too small, and while tapping it down the ring mandrel, it snapped.  I can solder it back together, but I'm not using it for the wedding ring.  So, using the rest of the billet I was just barely able to get the two rings out of it, but, it meant I had to use one end of the billet where I had a little delamination of the very top part of the pattern.  As I bent it, the little splotch popped off, which makes that part of the ring a little plain.  Also, I had to sand it down a little more than I would have liked to get rid of the dent.  I should have silver soldered that flake on - I did that with another little blemish, and it worked great.  Oh well, not bad for a mega crash course in mokume!  A few months ago I had never made a piece of jewelry before in my life.  All in all I only have a few days into this, and I learned everything either from here, books, or other internet searching.  Learning to solder was maybe the hardest part - I don't have a very good setup - just a torch like I would use for sweating pipes together.  A more delicate torch would be very nice.

 

Anyway, thanks for the help everybody!  It's been an awesome experience and I'm psyched for more!  It's no James Binnion piece, but not too bad!  I must say I owe the Steve Midget book a lot - that thing was invaluable!

 

Spruce

[Chinobi]

Job well done!! Those look great :) I am thoroughly impressed with what you have accomplished. Consider yourself warned though, it's a slippery slope, you might be on the hook for a matching necklace and earrings and other stuff for anniversaries :p