May be taking over a blacksmith shop....

[Candidquality]

I have an interesting opportunity in front of me currently. 2 of 3 partners in a shop have left and the third is probably leaving within a year. The 2 just decided it wasn't for them(one enjoyed collecting tools to much) and the third is moving back out of state. So I can take the shop, and the name. Shop is located in old downtown, right across from a great burger joint. I would like any advice possible on business arrangements, both while he is there with me, and after(or if) he leaves. I'm personally the handshake kinda guy and will shoot straight, and I believe him to be as well. But in these times i'm sure that's probably not enough.

This just fell into my lap or i'd be better prepared. I know that my portion of the rent would cover the utilities as well, it's wired for 110 and 220, there'a lineshaft drive currently there that i'd have to buy to keep, but would love to have anyway, so then it's just a matter of money(hammer, drill and buffer attached). I also know I'll try to stay away from anything the other smith currently sells so I won't be in direct competition with him.

SO what might I need to think about for tools to startup. I'm extremely lucky in that I've access to an entire machine shop at my current day job, including things like a waterjet and 5 axis cnc machine if i decide to do something crazy. But mostly it's for the mills, O/A, welder, etc.

As far as what I want to do with the business, I want to do traditional hand forging, nothing with electricity needed (nor wanted). I don't knock the guys who are doing it, but It's just not my cup of tea. I eventually want to set up classes for demo's and it's already a great setup for this. I have made everything from candlesticks to bedframes forged from 1 1/2" stock.



In the interest of not making this a novel i'll stop there. So If anyone has Ideas they'd like to share. Either here or through e-mail or private message, feel free. It would be truly appreciated. I'll update with pictures and answer any questions you might have. I really could use some help.

Thanks,
James

[Mills]

This would be part time? Can you make enough products or teach to cover the overhead? will going this route substantially change your current time investment, will the family be put on the shelf, will you burn out?

Lastly there was some really good thoughts in the last month in the knifemakers forum as it related to blades and selling.

Lastly where are you? I might come visit.

[ThomasPowers]

Are you going to run this as a business? I didn't see much in the way of business thinking in your post.

Would the shop be open to visitors.
Does the smith have to sell as well as work? (very hard to make product if you have to stop and watch the "customers" all the time)
Do you have a market for your products that pays extra for the hand work?
Does the tooling/set-up match your needs?
Will it support the directions you want to go?
How is the City/neighbors about having a smithy there?

Do you have the capital to run the business for several years with no profit?

tough questions I know

[Candidquality]

Great questions

Mills,
Currently part time, I have a day job and a consulting business, but I've been in the process of getting rid of the day job for a while now and should be there within the next six months to a year. For renting the shop I can cover the overhead without any issue, when it comes to buying it that may be another hurdle. Family has known this was coming for quite some time and will be willing to rough it for a few years with no issue. I'll check out the knifemakers forum for ideas about selling, but blades are definitely off the market for me currently. And I'm down here in Dallas.

Thomas,
would be a bit of practicing and shop setup for a few months, but after that definitely a business(and yes I would keep track of the setup costs, etc while starting).
The shop is currently open to visitors and I would like to keep it the same, even if I needed to limit it to certain hours. Hopefully there will be enough traffic to make this a necessity, but I don't think there is yet. My wife does not currently work, so if needed I could get her to run the sales. She also does web and graphic design as a hobby, so the web advertising would be an easy step.
There's definitely a market in the area D/FW enough to locally support the business for hand crafted.
Tooling -well there's never enough tooling, but i'll have a decent start and should have no real issue expanding from there. Everthing I want to do is non-powered. Not sure if it will support the direction or not, might have to move to another location at some point, thinking of this a a starting point, not necessarily a final destination.
As far as the location, it's an existing shop that's open 6 days a week, and has been for several years. I would imagine the city would enjoy this as an attraction, but it indeed might be a good idea to see what their plans are for the area, and that no toes are stepped on. Fighting the city is always a bad idea. Capital, well, can't just hop off onto it from here. I will definitely have to ease off a bit from the day job, but it's something I've wanted for quite some time and I'm hoping I have the brains to pull it off. I know I can find the customers, I know I can do the work. I know how to price the work to make a profit (and hopefully how to convince the customers of that )

I need to check into insurance for the shop for customers to be able to walk about, or into the legality of posting an "at your own risk" sign. make sure I have enough saved for a few lean months before burning any bridges. Need a good idea of the tools I may need for the work I have in mind. Need a good Idea of a training schedule and materials needed for that. Looked into the idea of a non-profit, at least for the classes, but I need to talk to an accountant about that avenue as there are too many laws involved.

Thanks for the thoughts, I do know it's difficult to startup a business. And one dealing with someone on my property instead of me on theirs, will pose new challenges. But I really want to find a way to make this work.

[bruce wilcock]

keeping free from debit, rearing a family ,bying a house,and smithy ,off the end of a anvil ,isnt plain sailing, the main asset you will need is ,self motivation,if you have that go for it.

[Candidquality]

Thanks for the encouragement Bruce. I have nothing if not a massive sense of drive. I actually appreciate the dose of reality I've been getting to help keep my enthusiasm in check. It's really hard to hold back when something you've planned for so long just sneaks up on you. That was the actual reason I posed the question. I'm sure that there's something i'm missing. And as I go I'll try my best to document the bumps in the road that I run into, in the hopes of helping that next poor guy in line, who doesn't really know what he's gotten himself into.

I smell a blueprint

Thanks,
James

[yesteryearforge]

James
Ive been in business for a good while ( so long in fact i think i would have a hard time working for someone else )
If there is but one piece of advice that i could give anyone contemplating starting a business it is.
MOST BUSINESSES DONT PLAN TO FAIL
THEY FAIL TO PLAN
Good luck in your venture

Mike

[johnny99]

Well, Here are a few thought from someone else living off the end of the anvil. (nice expression by the way.)

2 of 3 partners in a shop have left and the third is probably leaving within a year. The 2 just decided it wasn't for them(one enjoyed collecting tools to much) and the third is moving back out of state.
Partners = bad news! Ex partners even worse.

So I can take the shop, and the name. Shop is located in old downtown, right across from a great burger joint.
The name isn't worth anything, unless the client list comes with it.
Old downtown sounds nice, except around here all the old historic areas have ten year renovation plans to drive out the small buisinesses and replace them with starbucks, and boutiques. Also, how will your neighbors feel about you hammering at all hours of the day and night. Because make no mistake, thats what it will take to turn a profit. The burger joint thing is irrelevant.

there'a lineshaft drive currently there that i'd have to buy to keep, but would love to have anyway, so then it's just a matter of money(hammer, drill and buffer attached).
The tools are worth buying from them if it's a good deal, just to save you the hastle of setting up your own.

I also know I'll try to stay away from anything the other smith currently sells so I won't be in direct competition with him.
Your already shooting yourself in the foot by restricting your buissiness to unpowered hand forged stuff only. Why would you also cut your own throat by not producing the things that you already know will sell in that location???

I eventually want to set up classes for demo's and it's already a great setup for this.
Yes, it does sound like a great setup for teaching. Do you have the credentials to pull it off? Can you afford the insurance.

My wife does not currently work, so if needed I could get her to run the sales.
Ouch.!!!!

I'm sorry, if this sounds harsh. But that is the nature of starting your own buissiness. And I am really not trying to insult or dissuade you from your course of action. But It sounds like your kind of highliteing the plusses and down playing the negatives in your own mind.
I would hate to see you get tied up in something you can't get out of because of rampant enthusiasm.

Best of luck, whatever you decide to do. And personally, I think if you listen to what I've said, you probably don't have what it takes to succesfully run a buissiness anyway,
John

[Mills]

Johnny99 is pretty much on the money as well as Bruce. Do you hear the flaws in your plans and then find a way to make it work anyway? You will probably do well. If you gloss over the flaws cause you don't like to hear them, you may do ok anyway, but lower odds of success. Staying focused on the goal is the key I am discovering. I have been doing marginally ok but get bogged down in making stuff that is ill advised. Sounds nice but really wastes time I should have spent bringing in money.

I kinda see some of that now that J-99 points it out. Do you HAVE a client base that will pay for strictly hand forged work? How long will it take to develop? Are you that good?

Now WE don't need the answers to the questions. And the only sure way to answer them is like learning the trapeze. At some point you gotta jump and it is wise to have a net or be low to the ground.

Dallas is kind of a big place can you it narrow that down some?

[Candidquality]

Thanks again for the responses. And you are right, it's going to be the most difficult thing i've ever done. I'm hoping to avoid the most obvious pitfalls, though i'm sure i'll fall into a few. I definitely don't want to gloss over the hard issues. I want to tackle them hard, and early. It it worth it to form a LLC (at the tune of $1000) to avoid loosing everthing if i'm ever sued, or will a DBA($35) be enough to hold me over. How much insurance is enough to cover losses from damage. If i get to the point where I need help the issues are 10 times more complicated with fica and osha. Need to get in touch with the local fire marshal and show him what's going on(at least it's a metal building).
Partners also complicate the issue, that's the reason I wanted to limit my work to some work that he's not doing(or set up production work with him). It's a relationship like any other, the best thing is to sit down and get every detail worked out, and feel comfortable enough to talk if something else comes up that bothers you. I'd prefer without a partner, and that should happen soon. I need to verify the details Saturday. what stays, what goes, etc.
I have time to make a good decision. As this is not an instant make the decision or lose the opportunity. I can work with him for a bit, and if things don't go the direction I want, I can easily end the arrangement if necessary. I still have 2 other jobs, so I'm not leaping off a cliff (yet).
And no, I feel no insult. Great constructive feedback.
I don't need a business plan as I won't be getting a loan to start the business, but I'll sit down and do one just to give myself a good feel for the feasibility. I plan on using every tool I have to make sure I don't fail. I've even got a friend in the Small business admin. who can give me some pointers when it comes to that side. And I'll talk to him soon.

[Glenn]

The business books or accounting is full time job and should be first task to set up. Operate from day one as a business. As Bruce suggested, keep the business unencumbered and free of debt. Take time on a regular basis to enjoy life.

[ThomasPowers]

So how are you covering health insurance? I had a swordmaking friend lose several months of production due to one shop accident and then the costs of the medical care on top of that.

If you go in as a partnership DAY 1 mark ALL tools as to who they belong to. A complete inventory is a good idea too. When a historical site laid off their smith of over ten years they were quite disturbed to find out that all the tools he had been buying and bringing in, (since they wouldn't provide them), were his and would leave with him. A good inventory of meum et tuem helps a lot in those cases.

It also helps to have a production product; usually nothing fancy but something you can tool up and make a lot of and have a wholesale outlet for to tide you over slow periods.

Advertising?

One way to deal with visitors is to have an observation gallery either glassed in---safety glass! (I've seen it done with recycled sliding glass doors), or fine mesh screening to allow viewing but keep the shop and the visitors seperate.

[Candidquality]

Glenn, Business it will be from day one, just things like visitors and teaching will come in at a slightly later date. I'll have a tax attorney handling the books after the first few months. I need to get the system down during that time. My grandfather made the mistake of having his wife do the books and it's sadly why they went out of business. I have no plans to ever go into debt without a guaranteed ROI. Hopefully this never needs to happen. I like growth, but at a controlled pace.

Thomas, insurance is a large concern always, it almost seems at times that it's cheaper to pay out of pocket than pay the vultures that are the insurance agency now. Before leaving the day job I need to consider good insurance, and a secondary policy for cash expenses during time off. probably have to double the shop rate just to budget that in though from a quick glance at current costs.
Plan on making a photographic record of tools in house and stamping all my tools as I purchase them.
production work. ugh. I know it's a necessity for the off times, but none of us like the thought. I'll have two lines though, one for the real money and another for the smaller day-to day things that are more of a novelty item. Haven't even considered festivals or fairs yet. candle holders and other items that go for under $100 in a production standpoint are never a bad thing. never know when something small will lead to a much larger job, but i don't expect it.

Actually have access to something better than safety glass, stretched acrylic. Have been thinking about setting up an observation area for a while in a shop, but first though about it for video's. Would be interesting indeed to be able to forge weld at a public demo without worrying about the crowd getting a shower of steel. I'm lucky in that I can get this as it's scrap here. Just need to test it to see how well it holds up under the direct(short term) contact.

[ThomasPowers]

Dang you can afford to shell out 80,000-200,000 dollars in cash if you have a bad accident! Forget what I've said about capitalization and get to it! OTOH you could look into insurance with very high deductables.

I am of an age now that I have known several people who have had quite expensive medical issues: Heart attacks, cancer, accidents---my aunt and uncle were down in Texas and were hit by someone going the wrong way on the interstate---I think their bills are over a million so far. I was 28 when I had emergency gall bladder surgery. My daughter had emergency surgery on a christmas visit to my parents---later she was complaining about the high cost of health insurance on her first job and I reminded her that she had already used up 20K on my policy that would be *years* of premiums at her job's rate.

This is why I suggest people move to a country with socialized medicine if they want to be a bladesmith and do not have a spouse providing insurance for them from *her* job.

How does the acrylic do in sunlight? How resistant to scratching? Sounds like something I should look into for the travel set-up.

[Glenn]

Thomas Look for a product called Lexan.

Lexan polycarbonate is one of the most widely known "plastics". Lexan sheet with its unique combination of high impact strength, flame retardancy, and thermoformability makes it ideally suited for security applications. No other plastic can match Lexan's combination of light transmittance (clarity), and the ability to withstand extreme impact.

Lexan is far more durable than acrylic, often to the point of being described as "bulletproof" (depending on the thickness of the sample and the type of weapon used). Lexan is used in the aerospace industry for aircraft canopies, windscreens and other windows, but can be found in household items, such as bottles, compact discs, and DVDs. Perhaps the most visible Lexan consumer product is the Apple Computer iBook and the iPod; the gleaming white plastic is Lexan. It is also used in racing cars to replace heavier (and breakable) glass windshields and windows.

[mike-hr]

In my shop, plastic face shields and safety glass lenses have a tough time. A little grinding dust combined with a hurried wipe from a shirttail makes for intolerable streaks and rainbows. I'd use discarded glass patio doors.

[ThomasPowers]

Just make sure they are *safety* glass; they should be marked in a corner of the door.

[mcraigl]

Patio doors are made from tempered glass. It's very strong, but when it goes, it goes. That's the stuff that turns into a billion little bits when it breaks like the side windows in your car. What I think you'd want is laminated glass, which is more like the windshield in your car. It might get a crack, but it won't shower in on your observers. For the best of both worlds get a double pane that has tempered on the shop side and laminated on the spectator side. That's how we built skylights that were engineered to withstand a 30' snow load.

[Candidquality]

I know I need catastrophic insurance, I was referring to the small stuff out of pocket. Also need to look into that insurance that covers your cash needs during a major accident.

Had a nice talk with him for a few hours this weekend and it looks like it's a go. At least for a few months to see how well things work out. Option to back out later if needed. it's at an old feed mill. I'll try to get some pictures of it this coming weekend.(brought that camera but the conversation went so well I'd forgotten before I left) Equipment's in good shape. Great guy that I've had dealings with before. Top notch. It's a welcome change from some I've met recently.


The acrylic I have access to is much stronger than lexan, though there is an issue with the UV (good for about a year before replacement) and the scratch resistance is not as good as lexan, but I can coat it here and it becomes fairy scratch free. I also have the ability to polish it back out if scratched. Main reason I use it, it's free.

To give you an idea how tough this stuff is. If you have the bandwidth to see it then go here and check these out. The one of the birdstrike on the F16D canopy is really interesting to watch. They're huge videos (9 to 40 mb depending on the format)
http://www.texstars.com/Videos.html

Let me know if you want a piece, up to 20" wide and 8' long is fairly easy to find. Someone else also asked about scrap Kydex, but I can't remember who it was.

[ThomasPowers]

Note patio doors are *NOW* made from tempered glass; be wary of *old* ones that may predate the safety rule. Some folk live where there is an age to things! I've lived in three houses now that had lead pipe waste plumbing...

[Ferrous Beuler]

To keep a long story short here- If this venture becomes something you dred to drag yourself off to each morning, then bail out before you go down in flames. If it proves to be a success and enjoyable means of earning a living, then you'll have achieved what everyone is after no matter the vocation. Here's hoping the whole thing keeps you smiling and you don't find youv'e got a wolf by the ears with no way to let go. Shop around for a good business lawyer and carry a heap of insurance. Good Luck! Dan:)