Would RR Track Steel Be Good For a Cast Anvil?

[Archerdan]

Would RR Track Steel Be Good For a Cast Anvil?

 

Though the shape of RR track anvils leaves a lot to be desired, I haven't seen complaints about the steel itself. Actually, it seems to be a good quality steel.

 

What are your thoughts?

[Frosty]

RR rail is 1085 +/- IIRC and really high quality low alloy. If you're going to pay  enough to have someone who CAN melt and cast it without ruining the alloy you could buy a really high quality anvil of known manufacture.

 

If you're thinking of doing it yourself you  have to do a lot of research and spend even more building a melter that won't ruin the steel and learning pattern making and molding.

 

If you're thinking of using a thermite charge big enough to melt a hundred or more lbs. of steel you'd better do it in a really lonely part of the desert somewhere and have your will up to date. THAT is so far out of the realm of practical for an amature it's more in the realm of self destructive in the extreme.

 

It might be fun for thought experiments but not even close to practical in the real world.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[John McPherson]

We are living in the ruins of a post-industrial society. We will never be able to mass produce the metal items as cheaply as they were made 50 to 150 years ago. One of those things is anvils. Old anvils are still selling at a fraction of what a new quality cast stee anvil goes for. Why does everyone want to re-invent the wheel? Just buy one, new or used, and get to work hammering.

[Archerdan]

We are living in the ruins of a post-industrial society. We will never be able to mass produce the metal items as cheaply as they were made 50 to 150 years ago. One of those things is anvils. Old anvils are still selling at a fraction of what a new quality cast stee anvil goes for. Why does everyone want to re-invent the wheel? Just buy one, new or used, and get to work hammering.

Why?

 

Because, what you just pointed out bothers me, a lot!

 

I remember when, if the local steel mill sneezed, the whole valley caught a cold! I remember when they shut it down. They started it back up briefly, and there was no one left who knew how to start things up! The college I graduated from cut the vocational classes: Welding, Machining, Mine engineering, metallurgy. An entire nation built on computer technology, that produces nothing, is a house of cards. What are we going to do when we need to build a bridge? call someone in China and have them do it for us? 

 

I figured if our local foundry could caste anvils out of low carbon structural steel, maybe I could get them to cast decent anvils out of good steel. Get back to making things the best we can. It bothers me that American Made products are now considered the "cheaply made" products.

 

Sorry, I am a little OCD, maybe:-) but, I didn't design and build bows that set dozens of world distance records by building "bow shaped objects!" Yes, I am hooked on designing and building things. A recreational student ;-)

[ThomasPowers]

Jymm has had excellent anvils cast from high alloy steels; they are great but very pricey.  He did this to get anvils in historic configurations that are very hard to source these days.  You might track him down and ask about the experience.

 

Remember that casting is just the first step, cleaning up the casting heat treating, etc all have to be done as well.  A simple steel will probably not work as well as a high alloy steel as casting simple steels tends to leave them with large weak grain; the fancier and more expensive alloys get around this through the magic of metallurgy.

[John McPherson]

An entire nation built on computer technology, that produces nothing, is a house of cards. What are we going to do when we need to build a bridge? call someone in China and have them do it for us? 

 

Dan, you are behind the times. We have been doing exactly that for years now. California is having a new  bay bridge built in the Oakland area of Chinese design, with Chinese steel and Chinese welders barged over to do the job until completion.

 

I teach welding in a community college, and we fill every class and section that we open. For most, it is an act of dispare, trying to find something, anything to make a living that will not be outsourced or phased out.  

 

If you go back and look thru the forums, there are plenty of tales of woe about trying to get a quality casting in a timely manner for a reasonable price in the US and UK. There are more machine and welding shop forecloseure auctions than you can shake a stick at, and I have not seen a foundry auction notice in a decade, they are long gone.

[Rich Hale]

Then by all means you should either cast youir own anvil or find someone to cast it for you. The information above is very valuable but it is not your plan or shop direction..its your shop and you can indeed have it your way...i do notlet anyone tell me wot or how to make knives...well ok let me splain that...I started by learning to forge. then I moved into tool making and that got me into heat treating...for each of these steps along the way I spent a ton of hours in either private study or spending money to travel to clinics or workshops,,demonstrations or anyway I could find..Then I had the shop hours spent making knife rejects...lot of them...then..etc...then etc.

Had anyone up front told me I shouild just buy a knife instead i wouild not have listened...I had done that and never found a knife that did wot I wanted.

Based on how I learn and wot has worked for me. I absolutely believe I could have cast my own anvil. ,Anything I have set my mind to I have done in the pas4t and it has always worked out well...

For me I think I could have done it in a manner like above..and considering failures, and not counting injuries that may have happened I think I might have had something usable in five years or less...if I had done this before I retired and had more time...of course It would have likely doubled or tripled that time...So ten or fifteen years. i have two really nice really old anvils...I have spent some trade goods and $200 cash for them total.....May be just as well I did not spend the time to make my own?

[Archerdan]

Dan, you are behind the times. We have been doing exactly that for years now. California is having a new  bay bridge built in the Oakland area of Chinese design, with Chinese steel and Chinese welders barged over to do the job until completion.

 

I teach welding in a community college, and we fill every class and section that we open. For most, it is an act of dispare, trying to find something, anything to make a living that will not be outsourced or phased out.  

 

If you go back and look thru the forums, there are plenty of tales of woe about trying to get a quality casting in a timely manner for a reasonable price in the US and UK. There are more machine and welding shop forecloseure auctions than you can shake a stick at, and I have not seen a foundry auction notice in a decade, they are long gone.

We have 3 foundries that I know of within 60 miles. We have small steel mills that recycle steel. It is interesting how they use additives to remove the alloys they want and leave what they want. From what I see, if there is a demand, they can still produce what we want. I would love to see something turn in the right direction!

[John McPherson]

Americans are guaranteed the right to the pursuit of happiness. No one guarantees that you will catch any. But there are things that you can do that will narrow the gap.

 

I am not saying that no-one should fab up an anvil, or have an anvil or 100 anvils cast, for fun or profit. I am saying that unless you have done the due diligence to educate yourself as to what constitutes a good vs a mediocre anvil, the difference between a workhardening Manganese steel and A36, and a thousand other things, you will not be satisfied with the end result. A thousand professional blacksmiths are content with the available choices, and are not flogging the bushes for a better alternative.

 

It sometimes seems that every kid wants to make a sword, and every adult wants to make an anvil. But enthusiasm is no substitute for experience, either yours or others.

 

Wisdom is making good choices. Good choices come from experience. Experience comes from bad choices.

[Archerdan]

Americans are guaranteed the right to the pursuit of happiness. No one guarantees that you will catch any. But there are things that you can do that will narrow the gap.

 

I am not saying that no-one should fab up an anvil, or have an anvil or 100 anvils cast, for fun or profit. I am saying that unless you have done the due diligence to educate yourself as to what constitutes a good vs a mediocre anvil, the difference between a workhardening Manganese steel and A36, and a thousand other things, you will not be satisfied with the end result. A thousand professional blacksmiths are content with the available choices, and are not flogging the bushes for a better alternative.

 

It sometimes seems that every kid wants to make a sword, and every adult wants to make an anvil. But enthusiasm is no substitute for experience, either yours or others.

 

Wisdom is making good choices. Good choices come from experience. Experience comes from bad choices.

I get the impression you feel I am working alone without feedback from other experienced Blacksmiths. Steve from Rat Hole Forge, has his anvils cast at one of the local foundries I am talking about. They are cast from H13 steel. They are probably heat treated at the same industrial heat treating company who I will have heat treat my self made 300# 1045 anvil. 

 

The foundry making the low carbon cast steel anvils, also casts large machine components out of good high alloy steel. I wasn't thinking of trying to cast my own anvil with a backyard foundry, (Though it sounds fun, I have an idea for a solar foundry using gathered light through a shielding gas). I was trying to see if I could talk this foundry into

casting a better quality steel anvil, since they obviously could if they wanted to. RR rail steel is plentiful and cheap. But the grain size is a concern. I believe that the rolling process makes the steel fine grained. Cast, the steel may have a larger grain. That is a valid point, but has anyone tried it?

 

If they can get enough quantity from H13 drops to do some runs at an affordable price, Blacksmiths would be willing to have them heat treated for $100. (That is what it is costing me to have it done.

 

Archerdan

[SnailForge]

If you're thinking of using a thermite charge big enough to melt a hundred or more lbs. of steel you'd better do it in a really lonely part of the desert somewhere and have your will up to date. THAT is so far out of the realm of practical for an amature it's more in the realm of self destructive in the extreme.

 

Also be sure to have someone there with a camera to put it on youtube. Because I'd like to see that :)

[ianinsa]

Dan,John, this looks like it could be a fun debate! and sitting on the sidelines like a crow on the fence let me have a quark :D  when I was last in Portland,  I found a foundry that could and would cast anvils so it is quite doable! it's just not really cost effective I have developed a system for moulds using a similar consept to lost wax but suitable for a sandcasting system that reduces the mould cost yet the end result is still expensive. (think your hourly min.wage gets you a Chinese,Egyptian,Bangladeshi or Indian(from India, not native American)artisan for a week,

 

The recycling of track thou doable is probably not the best choise of steel you may find that just adding some extra chrome and manganese etc. to a standard steel that the foundry uses will probably get you a "better product" the foundry guys will probably be a good starting point for specific input, and this will give you a specific spec. for your heat treatment guys.. I however boubt that you will get to a selling price of less than $700 and for that money you can  probably get a good "used" one.  should you want to create a "new/remodeled " design 

then Quite feasible and fun just bear in mind you will have to put in a lot of legwork!

[Bo T]

There are anvils cast up here in Airway Heights (near Spokane). The steel is an air hardening steel and one of the tougher compositions around. It is used in rock crusher jaws. And the HRc is @ 54. Because it is through hardened you can have it machined to take care of the dents and divots in it once you've banged on it for a couple of decades. Your RR track will make a decent enough cast anvil but it will be shallow hardened. There were other anvils being cast over in Anacortes. If you want to do it for fun and experience you should give it a try but as a (potentially) business enterprise (IMO) you're late to the game with an (from a manufacturing and maintenance standpoint) inferior steel.

[Bo T]

Whoops! The Nimba? anvils are made in Port Townsend NOT Anacortes.:(

[John McPherson]

Casting *one* tool like an anvil, and then getting it properly heat treated, is not economical from most US foundries: a gross maybe, a train car load certainly. Economy of scale and all that. 

 

Unless you have a decade or three of experience with different anvil makes, shapes and sizes, how do you *know* what works best? And what sells best in the US?

 

There is way too small of an educated, cash-flush potential client list to make huge runs of new anvils profitable in the developed world. Not when folks are selling old anvils at flea markets and on-line, and there are importers of reasonable quality new and used anvils (and junk ASO's) everywhere you look.