tomstael Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Hello everyone. My first post. I am a hobbyist metal worker and am setting up my first forge. Almost there now with chimney in, anvil, blower, good vice and coke fueled forge with tue iron. BUT. Having a bit of a nightmare with the tue (at least thats where I presume the problem is). I picked the one that I have up form a mechanic who used to be a blacksmith in his youth. Old thing that needed restoring as it was leaking. Anyway took it all apart pretty painstakingly, sealed it up good, but now having real problems getting enough airflow through to get a good fire going. Initially I thought it was the blower that I had bought which was designed with blacksmithing in mind by an english company, so I sent it back and invested in a much more powerful industrial inflatable bouncy castle blower, made by gibbons (http://www.gibbonsfans.com/en/product_detail.php?story=27 for stats) but still really struggling to get enough air flow through though it seems plenty strong enough. All air passages seem tight sealed. It seems to come through alright but once the air passage coming out of the front of the tue is slightly blocked by say a little coke there is little air flow coming through, and am having trouble even starting a fire let alone getting it up to good forging temperature. I think the problem is that my tue has an unusually small opening of about 2cm/ 3/4" which can get blocked easily with a piece of coke, and also limits the air flow/pressure. I'm thinking of either making a new one myself or investing in buying a new one with a larger diameter opening. I hope this will provide the solution, but through I would ask for some help first; just in case I'm barking up the wrong tree. The only other thing I would say about the blower, if that is the problem, is that my previous one with less puff also would easily loose all pressure when something obstructed the front of my tue, and these are the two blowers that have been suggested to me by blacksmiths and I can't easily find any older style second hand ones on ebay etc. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Not the easiest thing starting up without much of a support community around. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I think the problem is that my tue has an unusually small opening of about 2cm/ 3/4" which can get blocked easily with a piece of coke, and also limits the air flow/pressure. [/quote Photos would go a long way in letting us visualize the problem. If you have a restricted air flow you will have a restricted fire. Keep as much air going to the fire as possible. It is the air that controls the heat, not the fuel. You may want to review http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/30887-forges-and-fires/ I use a single piece of 1/4 inch rod across a 2-1/2 inch opening and 2 pieces of 3/8 rod across a 3 inch opening. I have no problem forging with fines or coal dust using this set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstael Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 Its a side blast forge not a bottom blast one so sorry if unclear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstael Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 http://www.iforgeiron.com/gallery/image/36823-dsc-0360/ http://www.iforgeiron.com/gallery/image/36818-dsc-0354/ http://www.iforgeiron.com/gallery/image/36822-dsc-0359/ http://www.iforgeiron.com/gallery/image/36821-dsc-0357/ http://www.iforgeiron.com/gallery/image/36820-dsc-0356/ http://www.iforgeiron.com/gallery/image/36819-dsc-0355/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Rather than choke down the delivery system, use as large a pipe as possible to go to the back of the forge. Let the choke point be the opening just before the air hits the fuel. You will get much better air delivery that way. If you have too much air use an air gate to reduce the air flow or vent some of the air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstael Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 Thank you! Just checking that I understand what you mean. Are you suggesting that I use as large a pipe as possible from the blower outlet to the back of the tue, and then let the front of the tue do the choking? got an air gate set up already so if I understand your just saying that the narrow tubing that I'm using may be the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Yes and yes. Try to use a pipe the size of the blower outlet or larger for maximum air delivery. Let the front of the tue do the choking. Use tha air gate to do any fine adjustments is needed. Without getting into flow technology and a bunch of math, take this test. Blow air through a soda straw. The soda straw can only handle so much air due to the size of the straw. Now blow air through a 3 inch pipe with a funnel (think reducing) connected to the end. The 3 inch pipe will handle and deliver a LOT of air. Use the same air pressure for both, but let the CFM float due to the size of the pipe. Which will deliver more air to blow into the fire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Hi Tom, 3/4" is adequate for your air outlet at the tue, large enough for most work, yet economical for fuel use.The airline setup you have would also be a problem as it appears to be choking down (and I am approximating guessing here) from a 4" diameter to a 2" and then back up to a 3"I should also check there are no jammed pieces of coke inside the tue,With that blower, and the airgate fully open, it should blow cold coke out of the front of the hearth.The only other problem area could be a restricted airflow through the sidegrills of the blower, the picture is not too clear on the grill arrangement, and the picture on the manufacturer/suppliers site just shows perforations, but these should be adequate , and a blower of this size should be capable of supplying four or more hearths at a time. Provided the delivey pipe from blower to forge is large enough to act as an air reservoir, we use standard grey plastic sewer pipe as main delivery from blower, then teed off to 2"/50mm diameter to supply to air gate on each hearth.Whereabouts are you located? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstael Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 Ok good. I'm clear about the principle. I will try and rig it up as you suggest. If it still does not work, then I take it my only option is to get a larger tue. Thanks for your advice. I really appreciate it. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstael Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 John. Thank you for this advice. Good to know that 3/4" is big enough. The outlet of the blower is a rectangle of 5" by 6". It chokes down to a 3" pipe, which remains the same diameter until it gets to the back of the tue. Then obviously it tapers down internally as it travels through the tue. There are no jammed pieces of coke in the tue. I checked earlier today. When it is on it puts out a lot of air through 3" pipe, and then when hooked up to the tue it blows nicely out of the front. When I first rigged it all up I thought to myself that this should work nicely. Though it was a way from blowing coke off the forge like the forges I used at my teachers when I was learning. But it does not seem to be putting out much air with the air vent full open one I start to get my fire going. I'm presuming that its as when the wood I use to start the fire beds down and coke moves in front of the tue opening it stop the flow. I have had my poker in there to try and edge away any coke that it may be blocking it but my fire just keeps going out. This is of course with the airgate fully open. My teachers settup seems to be similar to yours. and the straight steel pipes that were acting as air ducts to 3 forges were about 3" I think. Thats why I'm surprised that its not working as the set up does not seem to dissimilar, and there would be the need to have the blower blowing straight into the back rather than being re-layed through 3" tubing. It's also why I thought the 3/4" tue outlet may be responsible. Its another good piece of advice to maybe play around or investigate the air uptake of the blower's side grills, as I take it the 1.50HP output is plenty. Do you think the 3 inch piping I got now and how its set up should be working? I'm in hereford. Thanks for you help. Hi Tom, 3/4" is adequate for your air outlet at the tue, large enough for most work, yet economical for fuel use. The airline setup you have would also be a problem as it appears to be choking down (and I am approximating guessing here) from a 4" diameter to a 2" and then back up to a 3" I should also check there are no jammed pieces of coke inside the tue, With that blower, and the airgate fully open, it should blow cold coke out of the front of the hearth. The only other problem area could be a restricted airflow through the sidegrills of the blower, the picture is not too clear on the grill arrangement, and the picture on the manufacturer/suppliers site just shows perforations, but these should be adequate , and a blower of this size should be capable of supplying four or more hearths at a time. Provided the delivey pipe from blower to forge is large enough to act as an air reservoir, we use standard grey plastic sewer pipe as main delivery from blower, then teed off to 2"/50mm diameter to supply to air gate on each hearth. Whereabouts are you located? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstael Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 the only other thing I wanted to ask is about blowers. I take it they have a certain capacity to put out a certain amount of air at a certain pressure. Without getting too complicated and mathematical I take it different blowers have a different capacity to keep putting out pressure when say I cover the outlet hose of the blower. The two blowers that I have bought both seem to cut out completely and go into a kind of feedback when the outlet is covered, rather than say compared with a hose the water pressure keeps trying to push my hand away. Are there different kinds of blowers that act more like the water hose in my analogy? Are the older blowers more like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 (edited) That's not turned out as I thought, but it gets across what i intended to. Edited April 5, 2013 by steve sells Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Ok bypass the whole set up and blow air directly from the blower into a 3/4 or 1 inch pipe stuck in the forge. A little duck tape will make the temporary connection between the blower and the pipe. This should tell you if the blower will work for your forge, or if there is some obstruction in the original system somewhere. If it blows too much air for the fire, that is a good thing. You can undo part of the duck tape and vent some of the air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstael Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 thanks for all your help everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale M. Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Air flow is a funny thing..... A small tube or pipe with lots of turbulence or excessive length will create "static pressure"... Static pressure is resistance to air flow....The more static pressure the less efficient the blower becomes.... Solution is probably to use large diameter smooth wall tube to link from blower to outlet at forge..... IF you need to throttle down blower a "blast gate" at any place in tube or pipe will accommodate.... The corrugated aluminum flex tubing that most seem to be using for "air duct" is probably the worst materials for air duct as each ripple cause turbulence and it is only aggravated more by next ripple in tube... More aggravation of air flow means less air delivered at end of duct.... Air in a pipe reacts same as fluids... A bit of study of fluid dynamics or air flow (as in HVAC) will reveal a lot.... Also length of air duct is a problem.... Length of duct should be as short as practical for what ever the application is... IF 2 feet of duct will do job, then do not use 4 to 6 feet of duct in air line.... And every bend or turn in pipe or tube inhibits air flow... IF you have to a blower with a 4 inch outlet, then I would use 4 inch dryer ducting for as much of run as possible, only choking run down as close to "outlet" as practical... Also long tapered transitions (funnel shaped) from large diameter to smaller diameter tube educes better air flow than blunt transitions that introduce turbulence... Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstael Posted February 18, 2013 Author Share Posted February 18, 2013 Thanks Dale. You legend. Many tips that will be handy for a lifetime. Thank you. By the way while I'm at it if anyone reads this and has a xxxxxxx lower (in the UK) they are willing to part with .... Hopefully I will slowly get things going .... will let you know what my final solution was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstael Posted March 20, 2013 Author Share Posted March 20, 2013 Hello everyone. So heres how I fixed my problem. After much huffing and puffing I ended up investing in a proper forge blower from glendale forge a manufacturers here in the uk. Hello everyone. So heres how I fixed my problem. After much huffing and puffing I ended up investing in a proper forge blower from glendale forge a manufacturers here in the uk. Hello everyone. So heres how I fixed my problem. After much huffing and puffing I ended up investing in a proper forge blower from glendale forge a manufacturers here in the uk. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blacksmiths-Forge-Blower-replacement-motors-service-spares-/121079056812?pt=UK_BOI_Metalworking_Milling_Welding_Metalworking_Supplies_ET&hash=item1c30dfc9ac I've been through a couple of diffrent blowers, one a bouncy castle inflatable one and one that was meant to be designed for blacksmiths proper. Neither had enough pressure (though ample CFM). I thought it may be my smallish tue (3/4") but actually its working perfectly with the blower from glendale. Couldn't really be happy, at around 400 quid its a forkout but the guy sounds pretty nice running it and he's willing to service and keep it going for a long time from what I hear. So you may really want to think about it if your in looking for one. Small neat and powerful. ALl the best and thank you for your advice and time. I've been through a couple of diffrent blowers, one a bouncy castle inflatable one and one that was meant to be designed for blacksmiths proper. Neither had enough pressure (though ample CFM). I thought it may be my smallish tue (3/4") but actually its working perfectly with the blower from glendale. Couldn't really be happy, at around 400 quid its a forkout but the guy sounds pretty nice running it and he's willing to service and keep it going for a long time from what I hear. So you may really want to think about it if your in looking for one. Small neat and powerful. ALl the best and thank you for your advice and time. I've been through a couple of different blowers, one a bouncy castle inflatable one and one that was meant to be designed for blacksmiths proper. Neither had enough pressure (though ample CFM). I thought it may be my smallish tue (3/4") but actually its working perfectly with the blower from glendale. Couldn't really be happy, at around 400 quid its a forkout but the guy sounds pretty nice running it and he's willing to service and keep it going for a long time from what I hear. So you may really want to think about it if your in looking for one. Small neat and powerful. Thank you for your advice and time everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremiah Johnson Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Hi all my first post here so hello and welcome ... I am building a forge and have come to a stand still as i need to get the tue iron sorted i have made a drawing Do u feel it will work ? constructive cretinism is welcome as i have no experience what so ever but research has led to me to believe making a cone shaped one is not possible so after more research i have made this rough sketch Jez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale M. Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Also I need to know if the phrase "tue iron" is synonymous (?) with "tuyree".... Forgive me, I'm still learning.... Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Also I need to know if the phrase "tue iron" is synonymous (?) with "tuyree".... Forgive me, I'm still learning.... Dale Tuyere and tue and tue iron are the all the same as far as I know...never heard of 'tuyree' Had a holiday on the Isle of Tyree once, the place with the most recorded sunshine of the British Isles... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 @ Jeremiah Johnson The straight tube tue works fine, I would tilt it the other way so that the tip which is the hottest part is lowest point, so that the thermo siphon will take the water away. The one I used initially (for five or six years) had an end plate both ends and I had a couple of car heater hose (1/2") rubber pipes feeding in to an old oil drum as a remote bosh which saved making a bosh and trying to get a water seal around both air pipe and water jacket. I do not quite understand your drawing. You show the thickness of the metal of the end plate but not the tube wall or the baffle. I am baffled by the baffle! Just one tube inside another should be adequate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale M. Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Tuyere and tue and tue iron are the all the same as far as I know...never heard of 'tuyree' Had a holiday on the Isle of Tyree once, the place with the most recorded sunshine of the British Isles... OOPS!... Misspelled it meant to use word.tuyere tu·yère[twee-yair, too-, tweer; French ty-yer] Show IPA noun, plural tu·yères [twee-yairz, too-, tweerz; French ty-yer] Show IPA . Metallurgy . an opening through which the blast of air enters a blast furnace, cupola, forge, or the like, to facilitate combustion. Also, tu·yer [twee-yair, too-, tweer] Show IPA . Origin: 1665–75; < French, derivative of tuyau pipe < Germanic Sorry for any confusion.... Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 California Blacksmiths have a how-to on making your own tapered tue iron, if you are a good enough welder, or know one. http://assets.calsmith.org/cba-cdn/412/Side_Blast_forge_original.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 @ Dale M sorry my smiley did not make it to the post:) @ JJ if you have not committed yourself yet I would be inclined to cut out the wet tue experience altogether and go for a bottom blast fire. The only advantage I found lacking was the simplicity of a tight fire for punching or welding, for everything else, especially when you get a power hammer and want to do longer lengths the bottom blast is far more versatile and maintenance free in my experience. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremiah Johnson Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 @ Jeremiah Johnson The straight tube tue works fine, I would tilt it the other way so that the tip which is the hottest part is lowest point, so that the thermo siphon will take the water away. The one I used initially (for five or six years) had an end plate both ends and I had a couple of car heater hose (1/2") rubber pipes feeding in to an old oil drum as a remote bosh which saved making a bosh and trying to get a water seal around both air pipe and water jacket. I do not quite understand your drawing. You show the thickness of the metal of the end plate but not the tube wall or the baffle. I am baffled by the baffle! Just one tube inside another should be adequate. The sketch is rough end there is an error it was meant to be an even 6" from base not 5" 6" 6" .. i was aiming for a 6mm - 8mm thickness on the pipe/Tue depending what i can get .. The Baffle after speaking to a couple of people it was mentioned that a baffle ( or some flat welded sideways onto the air pipe would help the water convect ....An inlet and outlet to an old header tank is a great idea save a lot of work Thanks for replying Jez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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