onetreeforge Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Hello I have nearly finished building a power hammer, my anvil base is a big G size oxygen cylinder with the bottom cut off, where the valve was there is a 75mm thick steel plate welded on and the anvil bolts to that. its very old and heavy. My question is if I fill it with concrete would it make it more efficient? or would that make things worse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
781 Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Tom Clak used to sell a hammer the base was filled with sand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetreeforge Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 I could use sand but I need to tip the whole thing upside down to pore it in, then tip it back to weld it to the plate witch is bolted to the floor. Was thinking of concreting river rocks in there to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike-hr Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 How about filling the cylinder full of several pieces of straight steel bar? As in, as many 1 inch square that will fit, then smaller sizes in the voids, rammed down until it thinks it's a solid chunk.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetreeforge Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 How about filling the cylinder full of several pieces of straight steel bar? As in, as many 1 inch square that will fit, then smaller sizes in the voids, rammed down until it thinks it's a solid chunk.. Was thinking about something like that, i have tones of off cuts but there all shapes and sizes and wouldn't pace nicely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacock Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 cut a hole near the top to pour the sand in after all the welding is done. If you weld a threaded bung in the hole you can screw a plug in it after it's filled Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pug}{maN Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Why can't you just cut a hole in the top por the sand in Then weld it shut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacock Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Never weld the last hole shut in a closed container. BOOM! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pug}{maN Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 What makes it do that? And if thats the case weld a bung in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Kehler Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 My treadle hammer base is similar and I filled it with all the old rusty bolts and cut-offs that accumulate then filled the voids with sand, steel is a lot denser than sand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacock Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 If you have a place that turns brake rotors and drums get the iron chips from them fill it up add a litter water and it will rust into a solid mass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetreeforge Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 I found 2 Buick v6 crankshafts, I think if I cement them in there, there was a pile of windo sash waights witch would have been perfict but he wanted money for them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matto Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 If it is full of sand and steel pieces it will not go boom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetreeforge Posted January 18, 2013 Author Share Posted January 18, 2013 it won't go boom anyway, an oxygen cylinder holds 20,000 KPA, The bottom has allready been cut to make it shorter, just need to weld that to the 20mm plate bolted to the floor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pug}{maN Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 I did not think it would, but I have been wrong before ...LOL.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironduck Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Sorry, but in the interest in trying to direct someone from making a misguided mistake, I am going to rain on the parade. Budgets are tight and all, but doing anything short of having a solid steel (or CI) anvil base for your power hammer, that you've likely just spent days or weeks building, is the same as spending $200USD on the finest hand hammer only to use it on a 25lb ASO of low grade Cast (?). No matter what you fill that tank with, or how tightly you pack it (even if you fill the voids with hot lead), you will never get the rebound needed to efficiently counter the blows of the ram (I guess, unless your ram only weighs 1lb - and I doubt that). Your power hammer will still work (even if the cylinder is left empty), but you likely will not be anywhere near as satisfied with its performance as if you where to acquired a proper anvil for it. I've looked at so many well designed and crafted power hammer mechanisms that were mated up to dead anvils - just sad to see all that energy and effort go to naught. You have to do what you have to do, but you can't pack concrete, sand, rust, old car part, or anthing else anyone else can think of, tight enough to come close to even the poorest grade CI (the resultant the material densities and Youngs Modulus are not even on the same page as solid steel). Weight is important, yes, but it is far more involved than just weight. Weight will help keep the entire assembly from dancing across your floor, but for the ram's blows to be effective at moving metal, the blows of the ram need to be countered (reflected may be a better word to describe what the anvil needs to do) by a suitably sized mass of equal or better strength (and since I going out on a limb here and speculating that your ram face is some type of mild or possibly tool steel, it would mean that you should use a suitably sized mass of solid steel to reflect the blows of the ram). When I state "suitably sized" I mean at a bare minimum a 10:1 mass ratio (anvil to ram). I believe there is even a chart to this effect listed in one of this forum's pages on power hammer construction, if not I'm sure that ABANA would have this information for you to verify what I've just written about. Good luck on your choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetreeforge Posted January 19, 2013 Author Share Posted January 19, 2013 Sorry, but in the interest in trying to direct someone from making a misguided mistake, I am going to rain on the parade. Budgets are tight and all, but doing anything short of having a solid steel (or CI) anvil base for your power hammer, that you've likely just spent days or weeks building, is the same as spending $200USD on the finest hand hammer only to use it on a 25lb ASO of low grade Cast (?). No matter what you fill that tank with, or how tightly you pack it (even if you fill the voids with hot lead), you will never get the rebound needed to efficiently counter the blows of the ram (I guess, unless your ram only weighs 1lb - and I doubt that). Your power hammer will still work (even if the cylinder is left empty), but you likely will not be anywhere near as satisfied with its performance as if you where to acquired a proper anvil for it. I've looked at so many well designed and crafted power hammer mechanisms that were mated up to dead anvils - just sad to see all that energy and effort go to naught. You have to do what you have to do, but you can't pack concrete, sand, rust, old car part, or anthing else anyone else can think of, tight enough to come close to even the poorest grade CI (the resultant the material densities and Youngs Modulus are not even on the same page as solid steel). Weight is important, yes, but it is far more involved than just weight. Weight will help keep the entire assembly from dancing across your floor, but for the ram's blows to be effective at moving metal, the blows of the ram need to be countered (reflected may be a better word to describe what the anvil needs to do) by a suitably sized mass of equal or better strength (and since I going out on a limb here and speculating that your ram face is some type of mild or possibly tool steel, it would mean that you should use a suitably sized mass of solid steel to reflect the blows of the ram). When I state "suitably sized" I mean at a bare minimum a 10:1 mass ratio (anvil to ram). I believe there is even a chart to this effect listed in one of this forum's pages on power hammer construction, if not I'm sure that ABANA would have this information for you to verify what I've just written about. Good luck on your choice. Thanks for the info, thats what I wanted to know realy, I have only tacked the anvil base to the rest of the hammer incase something better came along, my ram waighs 31 pounds and I have 4140 dies, I did come across that chart your talking about somewhere, I will put up some pictures at somestage. I was hitting the anvil with another hammer and it was pritty dead, you are right there, need to think of getting something solid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptree Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 If no other suitable hunk of steel comes along, consider 1" thick by 6" wide bar. Even 1" x 4". Cut to lenght needed for all vertical orientation and weld, This laminated style, with the joints vertical works well and is as close to a solid as one can get. You can also take 3" x3" as I did and weld them vertically. Later when some nice 1" think plate lenghts about 12" wide became available I welded those to the original 3" by 6". I am running a 70# ram. I am at about 530 in the anvil without the base and the hammer is very nice. And when the right scrap becomes available I intend to add more as I would like to have that anvil at 700 to 800# Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetreeforge Posted January 20, 2013 Author Share Posted January 20, 2013 If no other suitable hunk of steel comes along, consider 1" thick by 6" wide bar. Even 1" x 4". Cut to lenght needed for all vertical orientation and weld, This laminated style, with the joints vertical works well and is as close to a solid as one can get. You can also take 3" x3" as I did and weld them vertically. Later when some nice 1" think plate lenghts about 12" wide became available I welded those to the original 3" by 6". I am running a 70# ram. I am at about 530 in the anvil without the base and the hammer is very nice. And when the right scrap becomes available I intend to add more as I would like to have that anvil at 700 to 800# I saw some pictures of people using flat plate I get all my steel from the scrap so have to wate for something good to turn up, it saves me thousands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetreeforge Posted January 22, 2013 Author Share Posted January 22, 2013 I found a solid bar witch now runs right through the gas cylinder to the base, it has alot more bounce when you hit with a hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pug}{maN Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 That's cool man! Need more pics of it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetreeforge Posted January 22, 2013 Author Share Posted January 22, 2013 I will get some picutres for you tomro, just need to find a motor and motor pulley, got a 15" flat belt pulley for the cranck shaft, going to run a 3" wide flat belt witch slips for the clutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetreeforge Posted January 23, 2013 Author Share Posted January 23, 2013 Some more photos, going to mount the hammer in one conner of the shed at 45 degrees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetreeforge Posted January 23, 2013 Author Share Posted January 23, 2013 I havent had the spring tempred yet, I am worryed its not stiff enough, not sure if it needs more pre load or more leaves. it seems to be a bit on the wippy side, will it become more stiff when tempred? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Tempering is a process that takes some of the brittleness out of a hardened piece of high carbon steel. it your spring has not been hardened tempering will not help it. The heat treat stickies on the site may help you with this. if you wish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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