Round stock as fuller in power hammers?

[Blackcat]

I've been watching Bruce Evans' How to Forge a Frontier Style Tomahawk. In it, he uses a piece of round stock as a fuller during his power hammering. It seems to work fine but I wonder: is there any problems from using this technique? It just seems too good of an idea -- and I'm naturally suspicious.

Thanks!

[Old N Rusty]

I think it depends on your experience and what kind of power hammer you are using. I have a Little Giant 100 . I hesitate to do much top tool work in it , I have put work in the hammer holding it in my right hand and using a 11/2" round bar about 16" long in my left hand fullered detail in leaves. Scarey ! A L.G. does not STOP imediatly, if something got away from me it could fly out and hit you upside the head.  Risk is some of the excitement of heating and beating steel. I think an air hammer would have more control and do that easier.

[MOblacksmith0530]

you can use round bar as tooling under a power hammer. I do so under my 50 lb little giant. You need to be careful to keep the too parallel to the dies so it doesn't yank it out of your hand. I usually draw the handle portion down quite a bit to give it flex for mis-hits.

[Stephen Olivo]

some of the simple top fullers I have seen were half rounds on the end of a thin round rod handle.  One of the industrial smiths that demonstrated at the guild of metalsmiths conference a couple of years back used one and made one durring his demonstration.  Flipped over it also doubled as a flatter under the hammer.  Kind of a nifty low profile tool. 

[peacock]

On larger hammers say 50 lb and up you must have small  long handles so they can flex, just large enough to hold up the weight of the fuller.  It also needs to be dead soft. I use 1/4 inch hot rolled.  With it easy to bend you can bend it 90 degrees if you need to fuller the stock lengthwise, just slap it over the avnil.  On  my smaller hammers I ofen use old plillips screwdrivers.  Don't make handles with loops or hole that your fingers can get in, if it kicks over it will break your fingers.

[Judson Yaggy]

I do that all the time under a mechanical 100# power hammer.  KISS, a round bar is a fuller reduced to it's most simple form.  Some points to keep in mind thou:

 

1.  You need to have control of your hammer.  Mechanicals need a brake, utility hammers the proper valving, and self-contained hammers need to be running within factory tolerances to deliver controlled single blow performance.  

 

2.  As stated above you need to have the ability to keep the work and fuller in line with the force of the blow.  Flat dies and practice help.  Start small and work up.  Practice every day for a few weeks or months.  

 

3.  If you want to work a large fuller into your piece, start with a small round fuller.  Easy to get exactly on the spot wanted and will sink in fast due to the small surface area being worked.  Then step up to a mid sized bar on the same spot, then go to finished size.  

 

Special note for mechanical hammers-  be sure to adjust the stroke/pitman so that the hammer can cycle correctly with the stock plus fuller thickness between the dies.  This will most likelly be a wider setting than for just drawing out stock.  

[don schad]

Here is a link to a link to a power hammer tooling description put together by Clay Spencer:

 

http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/11550-power-hammer-tooling-described/

 

Somewhere I saw a reference to using stiff cable as tooling handles also.  These would be good for reconfiguring as Peacock describes and protect your hands from vibration.

[Blackcat]

Wow, thank you for all of the thoughtful and useful, replies. This board, and its members, have been a real aid in not only building up my (meager) skills but also courage. Thanks again!

[Steve Sells]

we posted about using this to draw out in the knife making classes. have a look there to see

[Judson Yaggy]

Don, the stiff cable idea is great, would never have thought of that on my own.  Will give it a try, thanks.

[forgemaster]

We make a punch for the railways here, I'll post the pic as they have a what we call a "flex handle" made using a piece of cable, plug welded into the punch head after heat treat then we use a pair of swages to crimp the rope into the pipe, the heat shrink is put over the rope to stop it fraying when the end user hits it with a sledge.  Teh heat shrink can be dispensed with for using under a hammer.  The red neoprene on the head of the punch is to prevent spalls flying off the head of the punch.

 

Phil

[jeremy k]

Phil - that is a good idea.

[don schad]

Judson,

 

I'm not sure if this is where I originally saw it, but in Lillico's book (Blacksmith's Manual Illustrated) there are a couple of pictures which appear to have this type of handle.   I can't find any mention in the text, but from the picture it looks to be cable looped around with a ring to tighten it up (see page 35, figure 10 and page 39 fig 3).  

[forgemaster]

When we use a round bar fuller we normally forge the handle down some to allow it some spring so as it does'nt jar your hand to much, Picky attached. These fullers we normally make from spring steel and leave it in the as normalised state.

[Francis Trez Cole]

Kim Thomas uses a cable welded to his dies under the power hammer. he has one welded to each end of the cable it looks like it works real well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJMgbYsO3ms

[brian.pierson]

Judson,

 

I'm not sure if this is where I originally saw it, but in Lillico's book (Blacksmith's Manual Illustrated) there are a couple of pictures which appear to have this type of handle.   I can't find any mention in the text, but from the picture it looks to be cable looped around with a ring to tighten it up (see page 35, figure 10 and page 39 fig 3).  

 

Don,

 

    If you read the description of figure 5 on page 26 and look on that plate and you see the two grooves. The other figures are thin metal rod (like 1/4 inch) although I have seen it written about using willow saplings wrapped around the heads also. I am trying to find that reference. I would think that cable could be used in place of the willow sapling.

 

Brian Pierson

[Judson Yaggy]

I also went and looked in my copy of Lillico's after Don posted and that drawing could be cable.  I had always assumed it was a sapling handle given the time period, but it could be cable, hard to tell from those old black and white line drawings.  A great idea none the less.  

[brian.pierson]

I found the reference for the wood twisted in the cold set. This is out of the blacksmith's craft. It is one of the Cosira books and I found it on the same website that had the Lilico book. I think the picture below is like the one I pointed out in my earlier posting. I do think cable would be a great substitute for either the hazel or iron handle twist. I wonder how stiff the Hazel would be in use. Would cable the size of the iron rod be stiff enough?  I would assume that would be based on the weight of the top tool. Sorry for the ramble on but this made me curious but wanted to share. Brian Pierson

 

 

[don schad]

It's not like we're over-thinking this, but in the context of forging locomotive brake parts, I'm sticking with cable, not some old twig!  ;)

 

Not that it matters, but I still have another good-old reference which I can't find, which perhaps has the original reference.  This mystery reference described building spring swages in two parts and bolting them together, one side flat the other with an offset bend.  Originally I was thinking this was Lillico, but I don't see this in there.  So perhaps it's in this other reference.  Now I need to find this just as sanity-check!

 

The setup from Kim Thomas looks pretty good.  I like the table on the PH, I've been meaning to do that myself.