almus Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Greetings everyone. I've just recently been taken in by the idea of backyard blacksmithing. My girlfriend got me a mapp/pro oxygen torch for Christmas as I thought I'd get my hands dirty with a little bit of simple Cuttlefish bone jewelry casting before really committing and building a DIY forge and getting an anvil and all that sweetness. I thought antimony might be a good metal to start with because of its relatively low melting point and the fact that it has a good amount of luster. However I've quickly noticed not very many people work with it as I've had a hard time finding examples of antimony jewelry. All I really want to know is if its safe to melt antimony with a Bernzomatic MAPP/PRO oxygen blow torch. Its advertised to reach temperatures of over 3000 degrees F, which is theoretically hot enough to BOIL antimony, and I'm no expert but I get the feeling boiling metal in my garage is a quick way to permanently disfigure myself or at the very least end up in the emergency room. I've already purchased a pound of antimony so I'd really like to use it. I was hoping to cast some simple rings and other small trinkets. If anyone has any tips or safety advice I'd really appreciate it. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 well, you better google it, I think you are starting out in the wrong direction. Make a fire brick "cave" , drill a hole in one brick to push the torch through, and heat 1/4 " rod , make hooks, nails, mason jar candle holders, small stuff. See where that takes you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Foundry and forging are related but different animals. I seriously doubt a MAPP torch will do much more than a teaspoon or so due to the overall low BTU output. For example, a propane forge cannot reach the peak temperature of an oxy-acetylene torch but it can have plenty of heat available to heat stock much more efficiently due to insulation and total BTU's. Your torch might theoretically reach a sufficient temp but the trouble is getting enough heat at a fast enough rate. If you want to play around and melt some metal, then take sufficient safety precautions like getting the right PPE and read up on proper practice. Pewter is probably a better choice than straight antimony so long as no lead is present in the alloy. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 the fact you dont know the differance between melting and smelting a metal says you have no experaince, read a lot before getting into this too far. Its not hard to melt and cast many various metals, just read a bit and take some safety precautions, you will have a lot of fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnewberry Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 My chemist wife tells me that antimony is kind of toxic. Be sure to check out to be sure you can safely work it and wear it. Here is the MSDShttp://www.usantimony.com/msds_metal.htm Looks like inhalation, eye contact and skin contact Re not recommended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almus Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 the fact you dont know the differance between melting and smelting a metal says you have no experaince That's funny, I thought the fact that I put "total noob" in the topic made it clear I have no experience :-P. Yes, I do not know the difference between melting and smelting. I just googled it, smelting would mean I have antimony ore that I need to refine into pure metal, right? Well, maybe I was misleading, but my antimony isn't literally raw, its in large crude ingots, but its 99% pure antimony. So I do believe my goal is to melt it, am I right? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm a total noob. everyone else, Thanks for the tips, I think the problem is that I'm associating blacksmithing with this project when its really a jewelry making project. I've seen tutorials of people using cuttlefish bones to cast jewelry. When they melt the metal they place it in a crucible and put a blow torch directly on to the metal. Is the blow torch they're using an oxy-acetylene torch then? The torch I've got is just MAPP, but its got a dedicated oxygen tank, which on full tilt according to the manual can cut steel, so it seems like a few dozen grams of antimony should be quick work. I'm guessing that since metal doesn't melt as gradually as ice melts then it would probably take a substantial amount of time for it to start boiling but that just sounds like the beginning of a horror show. That's why I wanted to ask some blacksmiths this question instead of going to a jewelers forum, since I feel like you guys have much more practical experience with the rate that metals transition phases, working with very hot flames, and working in a much more hostile workshop. I wasn't planning on making a forage or a foundry out of the mapp/pro torch, if I end up making a forge its going to be something similar to this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrEJwzjaAjM Sorry I was using the wrong terminology, once again, zero experience. Basically I'm hoping to make a little bit of jewelry using the simple and very old fashion cuttlefish bone casting method, and once I'm satisfied with that subject I'm going to graduate from simple, straight forward projects casting simple trinkets and jewelry to learning the much more complex trade of blacksmithing. in case anyone is interested, here is a simple walkthrough of cuttlebone casting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHjVKRHY1QY Thanks for the tips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almus Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 My chemist wife tells me that antimony is kind of toxic. Be sure to check out to be sure you can safely work it and wear it. Here is the MSDShttp://www.usantimony.com/msds_metal.htm Looks like inhalation, eye contact and skin contact Re not recommended. I swear I looked into the safety of antimony and it wasn't anywhere near as toxic as that MSDS reports. I'm really glad you posted that. I am a complete idiot. I knew antimony was toxic but I thought you had to ingest it or inhale it in an industrial setting for it to be dangerous. I'm glad I kept that idea in my head and went looking for information. Your wife deserves flowers. I know a lot of ammunition hobbyists who cast their own bullets who used antimony in their mixture, so I'm guessing its not imminently dangerous, but I probably shouldn't be messing with it. I'm going to get some pewter and or maybe some copper. Man I'm glad I asked the internet about this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Antimony is used in lead bullet alloys - IIRC, linotype is about 84% lead, 12% antimony and the balance is tin. One issue with melting and casting is that when the metal does finally melt, it does so immediately and you can have a potentially dangerous situation if you aren't prepared for that event. In other words, once you get some amount of molten material - whether in a teaspoon or 1000 lb crucible, you better have a well thought out plan of what to do with it. I'm not trying to lecture you on any particular do's and don'ts but you might do well to find someone in your area who has done some casting (that could certainly be a jeweler - or maybe a dentist) and see how the basic process in done on a small scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Hello and welcome to the forum. Cuttle bone casting is a real kick isn't it. I have done most of mine with Sterling silver not any of the low melt metals like tin, antimony, bismuth or lead. I have cast a few hundred pounds of bullets though and for that I used an electric melting pot which sure made life easier than a gas burner. Anyway your Benzomatic should do fine for antimony which has a melt point of around 1,1600F or there abouts so that torch should work fine. Sterling silver has a melt point of 1,640F or there abouts so why mess with antimony when you could be casting Sterling. One thing you need to watch is not getting the metal to the point where it boils and then vaporizes, that's one of the problems with casting, metal fumes can poison the body very easily. Vulcan the god of the foundry was portrayed as lame, early bronze was made with arsenic before it was made with tin and it caused neurological damage and made one appear lame and the image stuck when a god of the forge was created. So be careful to do your casting in a well ventilated space or better yet out of doors.Casting as well of forging is so much fun because it involves fire and tools, just can't beat that for a good time now can you. Best of luck with your project and let us know how it turns out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnewberry Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I swear I looked into the safety of antimony and it wasn't anywhere near as toxic as that MSDS reports. I'm really glad you posted that. I am a complete idiot. I knew antimony was toxic but I thought you had to ingest it or inhale it in an industrial setting for it to be dangerous. I'm glad I kept that idea in my head and went looking for information. Your wife deserves flowers. I know a lot of ammunition hobbyists who cast their own bullets who used antimony in their mixture, so I'm guessing its not imminently dangerous, but I probably shouldn't be messing with it. I'm going to get some pewter and or maybe some copper. Man I'm glad I asked the internet about this one. I'll tell her thanks for you. Be careful and be sure to show us pictures when you make something! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 iv gotta side with Bentiron on this one, i would ditch the antimony and pick up some sterling silver from wherever you can nearby, or order some online. I have only read about cuttlefish casting, i use delft clay because it is almost entirely re-useable and i prefer to shape a model of the object rather than carve a negative. definitely make sure you have a lot of ventilation, outside comes to mind :) unless i am overlooking some information you did not mention what you have on hand to melt your metal *in*, make sure you use a sound crucible avoid any easily preventable equipment failures. i would consider a handle mandatory for safe and easy pouring. it takes some time to get the metal and crucible up to melting temp so be prepared to heat it for several minutes and then be ready to pour as soon as the metal is liquid, keep the flame on the metal in crucible as you pour to keep the temp up and prevent it from seizing up in the sprue. once the metal is liquid there is no need to delay, continuing to heat after that point is when you start getting into metal vapor territory. flip through the myriad of youtube videos concerning casting, there are a lot of good ones for the various types of casting and the related steps. i can recommend FDJ tools for casting supplies, thats where i got my kit. at the very least its a good springboard to see the equipment involved. http://www.fdjtool.com/Category/1938_1/Delft_Clay_Supplies.aspx check out also the sticky at the top of the foundry and casting subforum, Dan has laid out a lot of very good information related to casting there. it leans more towards large scale projects but the principles and practices are basically the same. Good luck and post pics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 almus I think you'll find that most pewter alloys have antimony as an element in there make up. I don't believe that it is a metal that if used in a sensible way is anything to worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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