The stake/stump anvil: ubiquitous thoughout history?

[David Einhorn]

My question for folks that do smithing presentations at living history events, is whether a stake/stump anvil would be out-of-place at a presentation of their time period and country/location.  

[Dave Budd]

depends on the shape of the anvil, but a square/rectangular stake anvil is the most common shape for many hundreds of years and around the world, right up to the later middle ages ;)
 
You also get small bicked anvils (again staked) but nothing like the modern London Pattern
 
Do you have a particular period/location in mind?

[David Einhorn]

I am wondering about the various living history events in both Europe and the U.S. in that folks ask what equipment they can acquire that could be used at as many types/times/places of historical presentations as possible.  Does a smith really need to purchase a London pattern anvil for 1838 through modern presentations, a colonial anvil for U.S. colonial through early 1800s, and even another anvil for medieval presentation, etc.  Or can we recommend more generic/ubiquitous equipment such as a stake/stump anvil with one end square and the other end rectangular? 

 

Also, in a similar way can a smith also use one forge arrangement for multiple historical period presentations?  For example a wooden forge with a bellows nozzle entering the side of the wooden hearth of the forge (also called side-blast) ?

[dablacksmith]

not sure a stump anvil will work for 1800 on .. by then anvils were readily available and stump anvils were not common anymore at least from the research i have done... look at what was going on as far as metalworking  ... steam engines were being made early in the 1800s ... I saw a patent model (full size) in the smithsonian from 1836 for a steam powered hammer 300 lbs head weight! the industrial revolution was started! the forge is a different tho .. probably a side draft forge with bellows will work for many time lines...tho portable forges were not common... i would use the same setup for 1770-1880 and a different anvil for earlier ... but having said this if its a demo most people will not know the difference...in fact most people will be more interested in the glowing metal than what you are hammering on ... and for early time lines the tools do not  seem to change much from fairly early till 1600 or so. at that time you finally start to get anvils made in factorys... they were still using stake anvils tho...the opinions are mine from what i have researched but if you find different i am willing to learn!

[Charles R. Stevens]

Howdy, David. In the documentation you posted on face book there is a blueprint of the toolbox from a simi-portable naval forge that shows what appears to be a rather rather large stump anvil (as well as a vice that appears to index the hardy hole for the anvil but that's from an other thread).
In my reading on portable forges, I came across mention and if memory serve (after raising two girls I'm not shur one should trust that) as well of photos of forges From the civil war in which a knock down wooden box, or even a packing crate was used, filled with dirt as a forge inlue of a more complicated and presumiblely heavier metal portable forge. One still had to pack the bellows, anvil and other tooling of corse.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Forgot to ask (see what I keen about my memory, raising girls leads to early senility) do you have a high resolution image of the above mentioned blueprint?

[John McPherson]

Don't have the documentation in front of me, but IIRC Lewis & Clark took only a small stump anvil.

 

Williamsburg smiths used stake anvils for small items.

 

There are a lot of early portraits done with smiths sitting behind stake anvils holding up tongs & hammers.

 

So a lot depends on when, where, and who you are portraying. Frontier, city, plantation, wharf-side chandler, navy ship, cavalry unit, artillery unit, logging camp, cattle ranch, viking raiding party. And we have not even left the original 13 colonies!

[ThomasPowers]

When I got my stake anvil at Quad-State, (Forged by Steve Parker!), I was walking it back to my campsite crooning "my Precious", my Precious" and Jymm came running up to me asking where I had got it as it was spot on for what would have been used as a travel anvil at the time of the French and Indian War---1754–1763

I don't think it has ever gone out of style, just not as common as the years went by. The earliest example I have personally seen was the one in the Roman Museum in Bath England. The latest one I have personally seen was the yunque in the Camino Real Museum in New Mexico USA. I have seen pictures of a lot of others covering different times.

I would point out that the saw tuners anvils are a variation of this type and were used in the 19th century, at least in America.

The variability of earlier anvils was much greater than we generally think of especially before the mechanization of anvil manufacturing.

I would think the issue is going the other way: using a london pattern, (especially the late 19th century American variation with long horn and heel), in an earlier context is a problem compared to using a rectangular solid anvil at most any time till quite recent times.

As for the industrial revolution it started with WATER POWER and the mechanization of spinning and weaving.

The earliest powerhammer in Europe I have knowledge of was in the 900's; from a personal communication at the Medieval Technology Conference held at Penn State in the 1990's.

[David Einhorn]

Forgot to ask (see what I keen about my memory, raising girls leads to early senility) do you have a high resolution image of the above mentioned blueprint?

I am not sure which of the two forges you are asking about.

 

1) The only image I have for drawings I modified for a mid-1800s U.S. Civil War naval type forge is shown:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=307490855964664&set=a.289928167720933.63430.146477635399321&type=3&theater

 

2) A set of drawings of the mid-1800s U.S. Civil War portable “mountain” forge is available:

Title: The Civil War Mountain Artillery Portable Forge, Book Number 29

Author: Captain Albert Mordecai
circa 1848 through 1850s
Reprinted by Antique Ordnance Publishers

ANTIQUE ORDNANCE PUBLISHERS
BOX 434, 3611 OLD FARM LANE
FORT GRATIOT, MI 48059 Phone 1-810-987-7749
aop434@webtv.net Fax 1-810-982-1052

Their catalog may be viewed:
http://gunneyg.info/html/AOPCatalog.htm

Reprints of measured diagrams created by the U.S. Federal Government
to manufacture military equipment for the American Civil War,
including blacksmithing equipment used by the Army;
the Civil War Traveling Forge in Field Artillery Traveling Forge Book Number 61 and
the Mountain Forge in Civil War Mountain Artillery Portable Forge Book Number 29.
Also of interest to someone constructing a Traveling Forge is the book Civil War Field Gun Limber, book No. 21

[Charles R. Stevens]

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.289928167720933.63430.146477635399321&type=1
Third image from the left, first line from the top. Blue prints of a portable forge, lower left portion of image, showing the tool box and tools, to include the anvil and the vice.
http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/28254-hardy-hole-vise/page-2#entry311158
In this thread, I think the vice depicted in this blue print is applicable

[David Einhorn]

Charles R. Stevens

Posted Today, 10:09 PM

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.289928167720933.63430.146477635399321&type=1
Third image from the left, first line from the top. Blue prints of a portable forge, lower left portion of image, showing the tool box and tools, to include the anvil and the vice.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are referring to A set of drawings of the mid-1800s U.S. Civil War portable “mountain” forge

The blueprints that you are referring to is a set of drawings published as a reproduction of the period government drawings in book form.

 

I don't think anyone would want me to post all the pages here. I suggest acquiring a copy of the book from Antique Ordnance Publishers:

 

Title: The Civil War Mountain Artillery Portable Forge, Book Number 29

Author: Captain Albert Mordecai
circa 1848 through 1850s
Reprinted by Antique Ordnance Publishers

ANTIQUE ORDNANCE PUBLISHERS
BOX 434, 3611 OLD FARM LANE
FORT GRATIOT, MI 48059 Phone 1-810-987-7749
aop434@webtv.net Fax 1-810-982-1052

Their catalog may be viewed:
http://gunneyg.info/.../AOPCatalog.htm

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Thank you, sir. for passing along that information.
Am I correct in interpreting the anvil depicted as a stake anvil?

[David Einhorn]

Thank you, sir. for passing along that information.
Am I correct in interpreting the anvil depicted as a stake anvil?

 

Yes, you are correct it does appear to be a stake anvil.  And the vise appears to have a stem that goes into the hardy hole as well as extensions that wrap around the sides of the anvil.

 

If you are looking to construct a U.S. Civil War era forge, my recommendations would be to construct a larger forge than the small "Portable Forge", because it does not heat metal very well.  A friend had his reproduction "Portable Forge" at the last museum reenactment.  I brought my Naval style forge and placed it next to his forge, and he decided to share my forge for the day.  Any of the larger forges, Naval style, box-forge with bellows inserted into the side of the wooden box, or a wheeled Traveling Forge would be much easier to use than the small Portable Forge.  The wheeled Traveling Forge was the most common forge used by both armies North and South, and the wooden box forge was documented as being used by both sides as well.

 

I also feel that the stake anvil and the hardy hole anvil of the "Portable Forge" while nice to have for display, in my humble opinion are a lot of labor for the return on your investment of time and money.  If you like building stuff for the fun of it, constructing copies of the "Portable Forge", its special vise, and anvil could be great fun.  However, the vise, anvil and forge just don't seem to provide the functionality that would justify the effort to construct them.  One of the larger forges, and more standard vise, and anvil will likely, in my opinion, provide better service to cost ratio.

 

Please look in your PM (Personal Messages) for further information.

[Frank Turley]

There was a number of squarish block anvils in what is now New Mexico. They had the tang which was inserted into a hole inlet in a wooden stump. They appear to be made of fagot welded chunks of wrought iron. New Mexico was a frontier/fringe of Old Mexico, and I would guess that the larger two horned variety of anvil (bigornia) mostly stayed in Old Mexico. The "American" Anglo anvil began to appear in New Mexico Territory after 1821. The terminology of Hispanic anvils could lead to a little confusion, because the two horned bigornia also had a tang and did not have a flared base with "feet." It was by necessity a "stump anvil" even though not a square or rectangular block.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Not intending to highjack your thread, but what is your (and other learned smithes)opinion as to the decline of the use of the stake and stump anvils?
Was it style, ease of manufacture, versatility or something else?

[ThomasPowers]

The london pattern anvil is the "swiss army knife" of anvils--- all the bells and whistles to do a large number of things.

With the rise in manufacturing and *advertising* they were sold to the trade as the greatest thing since the invention of iron!

Who would buy an "old fashioned" stump anvil when you could get a sexy london pattern one with hardy hole and pritchel!

[tomhw]

One of my favorite references for early new world iron work is SOUTHWESTERN COLONIAL IRONWORK co-authored by some body named Frank Turley.  Get it, it is useful.  I wish that it was much more detailed- several volumes at least. 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Lol, great idea...
That "guy" is a regular contributer to IFI. In fact he has commented on this very thread.
But your in good company, most of us admire his work.

[ThomasPowers]

Guess you couldn't see Tom's tongue in his cheek there, perhaps breathing a bit more coal smoke or drinking some more slack tub tea would help...

[Charles R. Stevens]

'fraid it's dragons breath and pony exaust around here. Truly trying to find more time for blacksmithing as opposed to farrier work.
If the drought ever breaks, I may be able to scare up enugh coin to come and partake of Frank's wisdom in person (along with not a few others on my wish list).