The difference in a blacksmith and A Blacksmith....

[Richard V]

This is actually more a comment on the sad state of affairs it is trying to find ANY real craftsmen (and craftswomen) these days. Which is one of the reasons I follow so many of you guys on I Forge Iron and enjoy seeing your work SO MUCH!

Also yes, I do blacksmith, the proviso being that I have had ZERO time to do almost ANYTHING in a very long time, and I am sitting at the point where I basically need to build a new forge, and I still need to build a charcoal kiln, etc. IE other than ground forging, annealing, or very simple stuff (Yes I know fire steels are simple stuff too!) I am not even set up since our last house move to work, and again have had no time (and that's my excuse and I am sticking to it )

To the point....

My wife and I were at Texas Renaissance Festival outside Plantersville Texas with family for our yearly get together and my yearly day I am very glad my wife cannot read my mind... Well the wife has to stop by the facilities and I go up to the building with her "just in case" (Yes I am protective). While standing outside waiting around I notice one of the blacksmiths with their water wheeled powered setup and all the ins and outs. So when she is done we do a stop by.

Blacksmith #1 - AKA the water wheel blacksmith - I was looking at his work that he was selling goth jerk #417 and was very cynical that the $850 "black scorpion" sword was the ultimate power in the universe, or that it would cut machine gun barrels, was a one of a kind, etc. Once he was done I approached and asked what should have been a simple question. "Do you ever make fire steels?" Response was "what's a fire steel?" I proceeded to explain while he tried to sell me a second $850 "black scorpion that had emerged from a black hole in the counter. After about 15 minutes back and forth his answer was "I don't think we can make those, but there is one other blacksmith and he is two rows over."

Blacksmith #2 - AKA the two rows over guy - No customers so I approach his simpler but still fancy setup. I again ask "Do you ever make fire steels?" I get a couple of blinks and a "uhm...." After the last guy I explain "You know, the kind you use with flint, chert, etc for sparks to start a fire." His response "I know what they are! Do you think I am an idiot? Look what I have on the table is what I have for sale buddy so either buy something or #$%$!& Off!" I thank him for his time and move on with the knowledge that I am out of luck because I have been told that there was "one other blacksmith".

Blacksmith #3 - AKA the guy nobody knows anything about, AKA THE Blacksmith - We are walking along on the far side of the festival enjoying the shows, music, food etc. When in the middle of the road we come across a VERY simple booth. A tarp. With a table, a lady sitting on a board over a bucket of hardwood charcoal while working the last touches on a breathtaking bowie knife with emery cloth. Simple, yet beautiful and danged well made, knives line the table and a large bearded guy in a leather apron standing beside a simple steel table forge with blower, a anvil (cast in the early 1800s) and some odds and ends. I ask the same question (of the lady, the guy is busily looking at something on a small table of scrap) "Do you ever make fire steels?" The bearded guy (henceforth refereed to as THE Blacksmith, or Shane) looks up and says "No but let me see if I have a piece of scrap high carbon." He digs around pulls up a small triangle of steel and tosses it onto the forge. I proceed to ask (very pleased I might add) "How much am I going to owe you?" He looks up as he is cranking his bellows and replies "A cheese burger and a monster energy drink." I am starting to consider how far it is to town (yes I really would have drive there and back) when the lady points out "They are selling both over in the "German" area." I say "I will be right back!" and take off to get a stipulated meat cheese and bread burger. I will point out at this point I forgot my manners and failed to ask the lady what she would like, but I did NOT fail to go ahead and pick up a bottle of water for her. I get back to find a few dozen people now standing around watching him smith as he wiggled his large behind at the ladies, chatted up the crowed, spun his hammer like a rock and roll drummer, and was basically the most gregarious person at the whole danged festival (and that takes a bit!) In roughly no time (THE Blacksmith kept pausing to demonstrate knives, etc which I had NO problem with because he was doing ME a favor not the other way around) he handed me a fire steel, shook my hand, and thanked me while I thanked him. I will NEVER forget his quote he kept saying to folks in a VERY jolly tone. "It's only a dying art if you don't buy something!" By the way if you meet Shane (THE Blacksmith) in the flesh ask him to do his big guy behind wiggle for you. The ladies dig it!

This is a pic of the fire steel (He left the scale on as he didn't want to use his only files on a non-knife object which again I had NO problem with)

Shane Stainton of Red Dog Forge thank you! It ment alot to me!

Richard V

[george m.]

Dear Richard,

It's too bad that the first two smiths had lost touch with the part of the craft that includes interacting with the customers. I'm sure that the fun THE Smith was having is something that was in their past if it was ever there at all.

In their defense, my experience with Ren Faires is that the craftspeople, particularly those with permanent sites like #1 have to put in so much of their own capital and time to the folk running the Faire that they have to maximize their profits any way they can. Hence the rap about magic swords. #2 may have just been burnt out. Years ago I was approached about being the smith at the local Ren Faire. I declined because I had known too many people who had not been treated appropriately regarding money and because it would have required me to be there for 7 straight weekends during the summer. That may be fine for "rennies" who make their living doing that sort of thing but for someone with a M-F job that's a long time to go without any time off, particularly considering the time during the week when inventory must be made.

I'll bet THE smith didn't have to put in as much for the booth fee and that he hadn't been there for an extended period of weekends.

But I could be wrong. THE smith could just be a good guy and the others jerks.

Observationally,
George M.

[ThomasPowers]

I wonder if Shane was there as part of a group like the SCA and so not an "official" merchant.

The Southern branch of SWABA was at the small Renaissance Faire in Las Cruces NM last weekend. I was escorting my wife to sit and spin with the local SCA group when I ran into their set up. Receiving permission from my spouse I spent all day Saturday at their set up manning the table and talking up a storm. Next year I hope to attend and bring down all my forging tunics and get them in garb! Maybe I can talk them into trying out my Y1K set up too...

They were doing it as a demo and so it was costing *them* to be there showing off the craft and a great job of it they did!

"working the crowd" is a skill just as teaching smithing is and both of them can be separate from skill in smithing.

[Richard V]

george it is possible, but I would think the blacksmith(s) who treated customers they way the first two did would be alot skinnier than they were.....

ThomasPowers - I don't think so. Texas Ren Fest is kinda brown shirt about who sells and who doesn't in their park during a festival. IE they want their piece of the pie and in days of old they were even known to decide what your prices were going to be so they could get a BIGGER slice of the BIGGER pie.

You are right though. Being a smith, and being a salesmen, or teacher are not even remotly related. BUT if I was a smith in that condition (IE I didn't want to be bothered) then I would think I would want to hire a saleman (or have a apprentice do it) to stand out front and stump for me. And if I got a unusual request then send the iron monkey's and gopher's (apprentices) to find out what they want, and if it is simple make it under a watchful eye. If it isn't simple I would verify it and do it myself if it was reasonable. If it wasn't a reasonable request (acid etched titanium blade silver inlaid ivory handled vampire hunting swords for instance) then I would suggest another smith to them who could "better" fill their needs(preferably one I didn't like :D )

Richard

[Francis Trez Cole]

There is a ren fair here it is really just a bunch of carnival folks selling there wares, bring in the buses of school kids and try to get them to part with mom and dads money. Most stuff is made in china and the just hammer a round they use to have a sword maker that made good stuff but he gave up the tour.

[ThomasPowers]

"acid etched titanium blade silver inlaid ivory handled vampire hunting swords"

I could so make those; but they would have to rent a truck to deliver the money I would charge!

Now I'm lucky that I'm usually demonstrating at events where I can invite someone back and hand them the hammer---it's become my favorite entertainment when I get hounded by "experts" who have never hit a piece of glowing metal but know all about it because of video games...Doesn't take long to find out that the hammer and anvil are different than a controller and what someone who knows squat about smithing programs into a game.

And every once in a while you will run across one of the next generation of smiths and get to help them realize it!

[PaulKrzysz]

This really goes for anything. Customer service is everything. If your a jerk no one with bother with you, or if they do they will never do it again, or recommend you to anybody.

[Richard V]

good manners are so important when demonstrating or reenacting, that I may actually take a semi-annual bath, brush my two toofs, and leave my pit bull at home at these events!

ROFLMAO That made my day stewartthesmith!

[Metaljohn]

Sounds like a really nice guy.

[jmccustomknives]

Great story. Unfortunatly I run into people who have met 'smiths #1 &2. The last event I had several people thank me for taking the time to show them how something was done when others wouldn't give them the time of day. If you don't like talking to people, even ones with stupid questions then you probably shouldn't be demoing in front of them. Thanks for the pic of the fire steel, now when someone ask me if I can make one I'll say," never have but I've seen one." ^_^

[Frosty]

I used to be associated with a "smith" #1 kind of bladesmith. doing demos he'd be feeding unending piles of BS to folk who were interested in buying a blade they could use but he'd spend literally hours trying to convince them they actually wanted to buy what he had to sell. Big honking fighters and bowies.

I'd just have a good time making leaf finial coat hooks, explaining the process, telling jokes, teasing folk and just generally having a good time. The bladesmith's blades were nice to see and he'd be more than happy to tell you his swords were the match for anything made historically. I don't know how he came up with that but . . . In the 9 days we demoed at the State fair I had trouble keeping coat hooks on the table for folk to look at and handle and he didn't sell blade one.

Oh yeah, I sold two fire steels after the first guy drew me a picture of what he wanted, repaired the seat suspension spring for a tractor for the museum, repaired several brands a fellow's father made back when. Made some hinges, a couple door pulls for a LARGE door and other general stuff.

I didn't make wages, even a days worth but did break a little better than even. I'm pretty convinced my success was my unpretentious charming BS patter. I'd kid folk like Flo the waitress, answer any questions, especially the ones the kids asked. Kept folk from getting in dangerous positions and just generally had a ball.

I'm not going to get into the bladesmith's problems . . . No, no comment.

I think the less successful salespeople don't realize most folk can see through BS if you keep flapping it in their face. Of course I could be wrong but I don't think there is one single incident of a sword cutting through the barrel of a machine gun. Were I to hear such a line I'd be sorely tempted to bring an old rifle barrel and have them show me. Still, good BS is in the timing, leaving the spectator wanting more and a smile. If someone catches on you HAVE to let them off the hook while it's still a surprise or surprise turns into embarrassment then quickly ANGER. You'll never sell a thing to someone who's MAD at you and nothing sticks like a public embarrassment.

Glad you met a good guy Richard, it'd be a treat to meet him someday.

Frosty The Lucky.

[John McPherson]

The skill level of Renn Faire smiths runs the gamut from masters like Bill Epps and Trenton Tye down to ignorant metal manglers.

As for salesmen: it has been my observation the lower the grade of steak, the more they hype the sizzle.......

[ThomasPowers]

On the whole blades tend to attract a lot of hype as you have to figure some way of validating the high prices they bring. In the higher levels of the craft the makers *name* is often more than 1/2 the cost---but when you are in the lower levels a lot of hype seeps in.

I apprenticed with a professional maker and used to attend the Guild Shows with an exhibitor's pass and got to sit in on discussions of this.

If you really want to invest; buy the best knife of a fellow that's on the cusp of making a name for himself. Often they will be doing as good or even better work than the "big names" but won't have the price boost *yet*.

[Leon Renaud]

I used to be associated with a "smith" #1 kind of bladesmith. doing demos he'd be feeding unending piles of BS to folk who were interested in buying a blade they could use but he'd spend literally hours trying to convince them they actually wanted to buy what he had to sell. Big honking fighters and bowies.

clip

I think the less successful salespeople don't realize most folk can see through BS if you keep flapping it in their face. Of course I could be wrong but I don't think there is one single incident of a sword cutting through the barrel of a machine gun. Were I to hear such a line I'd be sorely tempted to bring an old rifle barrel and have them show me. Still, good BS is in the timing, leaving the spectator wanting more and a smile. If someone catches on you HAVE to let them off the hook while it's still a surprise or surprise turns into embarrassment then quickly ANGER. You'll never sell a thing to someone who's MAD at you and nothing sticks like a public embarrassment.

Glad you met a good guy Richard, it'd be a treat to meet him someday.

Frosty The Lucky.

There was a WWII video of a captured Japanese officer cutting the barrel off of a tripod mounted machinegun on the run! Many many years back I saw a movie made for training American GIs about Japanese soldiers abilities. In the movie an officer did a voluntary demo of Samauri Swordsmansip. In the video he ran past a mounted machine gun like you would see one in a fox hole or gun emplacement. He drew and swung his sword in one motion and cut the barrel off just forward of the action he did this as he ran by the gun in one fluid motion! The film I saw was part of a series called "Yesterdays News Reels " the local pay TV station called "Preview" used to run these in the very early morning hours like 2-3 AM. This pay station was here in the early 70s. I have tried many times to find another copy of that show but can't find it. it was made because at the beginning of the war we had little respect "Tojo and his pig sticker" ( no disrepect intended just quoting WWII era jargon) We learned real quick to respect their fighting abilities and spirit!

Blacksmith #2 - AKA the two rows over guy - No customers so I approach his simpler but still fancy setup. I again ask "Do you ever make fire steels?" I get a couple of blinks and a "uhm...." After the last guy I explain "You know, the kind you use with flint, chert, etc for sparks to start a fire." His response "I know what they are! Do you think I am an idiot? Look what I have on the table is what I have for sale buddy so either buy something or #$%$!& Off!" I thank him for his time and move on with the knowledge that I am out of luck because I have been told that there was "one other blacksmith".

I think if this guy was at either of the 2 major ren faires here and the owners were made aware he treated the public like this he would be directed to leave and not be allowed back! I have seen some people warned about language etc. in the past

[george m.]

Dear Leon,

Set against those accounts of sword vs. machine gun barrel is the Mythbusters episode where they tried to prove or disprove whether this could be done. They used a WW II vintage .30 mg barrel and modern manufactured katana swords. The results, even when done with a machine which could swing a sword at several times maximum human speed were MG barrel: 1, sword: 0. Personally, I'm skeptical of something which cannot be replicated. Given the amount of effort needed to cut through about an inch of high carbon steel I'm skeptical of it being within human capability. (The Mythbusters even tried it with a red hot barrel.)

Apocryphally,
George M.

[ptree]

Considering that many WWII films shown to GI's were made by Hollywood and were straight up propoganda, and the simple fact the machine gum barrells are high grade steel and quite thick, the whole idea of a sword cutting thru is ludicris.

Ptree who was told in basic that if they are close enough to stab or slice they are certainly close enough to shoot.

[John McPherson]

Lets's see. The man does plain carbon and pattern welded blades, furniture, gates, railings, free standing art and sculpture, and is an engaging demonstrator and teacher. IMHO, pretty well rounded at a relatively young age. Would you consider him a high end Journeyman?

[metalmangeler]

Sometimes I am pretty dissatisfied with my own demos. Not hard to immagine other who think I should do better in my public relations. On the other hand at times I know I have really helped out some in need sometimes other vendors sometimes pedestreans. We do ussually have the best set of tools on the grounds.

[MOblacksmith0530]

At our ren fair we have the reputation that we ahould I think. If you need it fixed bring it to the blacksmith shop. WE have repiaired everything from eye glasses ( made a tiny screwdriver) to belly dancer costumes (the coins were falling off the outfits)(took a really long time to make those repairs let me tell you).
We even had another "forge" booth on the grounds we made parts for and repaired on occasion.

[Steve McCarthy]

(took a really long time to make those repairs let me tell you).

LMAO

[Francis Trez Cole]

Tye's big claim is he is a Blacksmith Entertainer any one can talk to a crowd and sell them a bill of goods. I have had discussions on line with him he is a good basic smith at best.

[macbruce]

any one can talk to a crowd and sell them a bill of goods.

I couldn't agree less. Working a crowd is an art unto itself and if you don't do it well people walk away most of the time. I remember watching Bruce Northridge at a norhhern Caifornia Ren Fair and he owned the crowd. He could make them laugh in between heats and wow them with his skill. Both work hand in hand.....

[ThomasPowers]

I've seen a lot of demos in my time and there are some folks who could make watching steel rust an entertaining and riveting thing and other that could be welding up a pattern welded gun barrel yet make it a dry, boring thing.

A Master Smith may not be a good teacher in my opinion; but they need to know the craft thoroughly.

As to apprenticeships I spent one year working with a swordmaker; 6 days a week in the shop, no pay; but I did get 2 meals a day with his family. Anything I made to sell; he put the price on it and took the shop's cut right off the top. At the end of the year I got married to a lady his wife had introduced me to and had kids to support and had to get a real job; but that year living off my savings in an ancient trailer was one of the high points in my life!

[Richard V]

I have to side with macbruce. I have seen salesmen that could sell refrigerators to eskimos, and I have seen salesmen who couldn't sell $100 bills for a penny a piece.

ThomasPowers you are right IMHO. Just because you are good at something doesn't mean you can teach it.

Just because you aren't a salesman, and can't teach, however, is no reason to be a jerk to a customer, or even a looky-loo. Just because you have answered that stupid highlander sword BS damascus question 1.2millon times doesn't mean the asker has heard a real answer even once. In point of fact education is the only way to defeat the sword-like-object tin/chrome junk dealers of the world, and even that will only go so far.

My 2 cents.

GoodOlBoy

[jcornell]

I was at the Maryland RenFair at the very last weekend of the year. There was in an out-of-the-way corner what purported to be a blacksmith shop. There was an anvil, a post vise, and what might have been a coal forge, but there was no bucket of coal, no bucket of ashes, no quench bucket, and no visible tools. The shop was amazingly clean, dust free and ash free. The stuff being sold looked like the usual imported fantasy knives from China, India, Pakistan, etc. Needless to say, I was not impressed. Last year there were a few items that actually looked like they were hand made (and somewhat interesting) but this year it was all imported junk. My son pointed out a sign that said something to the effect of "don't talk to the blacksmith while he's working" but I thought that was as much a prop as the rest of the extremely clean gear that looked like it hadn't been used for a long time.