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I Forge Iron

To ring or not to ring...


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There seems to be a split in the smiths I've seen working on whether they ring the anvil while forging or not. Personally, I seem to ring the anvil every 4th or 5th blow. I guess it's because the fellow I've learned the most from watching rings in about this interval.

I recently read in Randy McDaniels' A Blacksmithing Primer that we shouldn't tap or ring the anvil in between blows.

What's your feelings/practice? I'm admittedly green. Should I be breaking the habit before it's too late?

:?:

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Hello,
Who started that idea anyways? I never "ring" the anvil. I'm also kinda green but from what I've read, that is what they call a "lazy" blacksmith, for he is using the recoil to bring his hammer back up to strike agian. I also have in my search for a good used anvil seen so many that was sway backed, that I'm sure that is part of the reason they got that way. I have a hard enough time just hitting the metal I'm forging on some times that I just don't see any reason to hit the face of the anvil just to ring it.
Thats my $0.02 worth!

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A tap now and again does no harm - just don't stand there whaling away with no hot metal between hammer and anvil. In addition, a bounce every 4 or 5 times is wasting a stroke and some of the heat if you are really trying move metal.

I have a rhythm that hits the work every blow while a good heat exists, then I bounce the hammer sometimes when I am using finish blows. Sort of like 'thinking in motion'.

If you do take up knitting, I'd like first dibs on your anvil... :wink:

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Well here we go again with a twist this time.

I guess my grandfather, my father, my uncle and all the OLD blacksmiths I grew up with were REAL BLACKSMITHS then.

You don't really ring the anvil or hit it, its a resting tap sort of when turning the workpiece. You just let the hammer fall on the anvil instead of stopping, it keeps your rythum going I guess. Any way that was the way I was taught by my father and uncle.

Now to the subject of a sway back anvil.

Most of my anvils are sway back from use. Most anvils that were used for plow work will be that way from the constant pounding in one place. The type of work done will determine whether the anvil is swaaaay back or not. A lot of old smiths crowned their anvils too. They will be high in the center and lower on the sides, they thought the crown helped draw the material a little more than just a flat face.

Cause; The cause of sway back is the crushing of the wrought iron under the hard face from constant use. If you will look close at a sway back anvil the sides will be pushed out where the sway is. The top is really not worn away but driven down from constant use in one spot, some call this the sweet spot of the anvil. The sway is very useful for straightening things as there is a little give so the metal can go past center a little to facilitate straightening.

$.02 worth from an OLD smith

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Here's how it works:
No talking while striking - it's useless as teaching a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.
Five taps on the anvil - smith requires a striker; the striker, when ready, taps once lightly on the heel of the anvil for signal
Smith strikes the iron and taps once on the anvil - signal for striker to commence striking where the smith is hitting
Smith taps twice on the anvil after his strike - striker can take the next strike as normal, though his next strike is an empty one (light) either on the heel or the horn while the smith repositions the iron (this is such that the rhythm may be kept)
Smith taps once sfterwards on anvil - striker to only hit in the center of the anvil, as the smith will now move the iron to where the strikes are required
Smith taps twice and drags the hammer - striker has one last strike and then is finished for this heat
.
When the smith is working with two strikers, the second striker listens to the smith's strike-signals, yet does not get the very last strike, as he has had time to break the cycle.
.
This is how I was taught (European). At first, I thought "well, I'll just humour him, he's probably the only one who does that", then one day, we had a few visitors in the shop, one fellow I had never met before. As I was lead striker and the other fellows who worked there were familiar with the signals, I tapped five times looking for a striker. This new guy walked up with the sledge and replied.... after completing the third heat, I introduced myself and asked him how he knew the signals. He replied that all who had taken the smithing trade in Germany were familiar with them.
It appears that only around here does no one know much about signals.
.
An anvil choir is where there are at leat two anvils and at least one smith and striker at each. Lead anvil has the master - he leads the whole shot; second anvil-smith listens to and follows the lead of the master; each striker follows the smith of his particular anvil. If you get a master with good musical sense (definitely not me), it sounds wonderful.

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I was a little confused until I rewrote the whole thing. Now, for me, it is easy to see how the conversation works. (Daryl, thanks for the explaination. Great post.)


Smith: 5 taps on the anvil
.....Smith requires a striker;
Striker: 1 tap lightly on the heel of the anvil.
.....Striker is ready and waiting for signals


Smith: Strike and 1 tap on the anvil
.....Signal for striker to commence striking where the smith is hitting


Smith: Strike and 2 taps on the anvil
.....Striker can take the next strike as normal, though his 2nd strike is an empty one (light) either on the heel or the horn while the smith repositions the iron (this is such that the rhythm may be kept)
Smith: 1 tap afterwards on anvil
.....Striker to only hit in the center of the anvil, as the smith will now move the iron to where the strikes are required



Smith: 2 taps and drags the hammer
.....Striker has one last strike and then is finished for this heat

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Thanks Daryl, Most smiths in the US are not used to working with a striker, and I have not been exposed to European smiths working with strikers so I had no idea there were Universal signals.

I have a couple of young smiths I work with occassionaly and we use the signals taught to me by my father. When I was young I more or less grew up in the blacksmith shop and I was the striker most of the time when one was needed.

The Signals I was taught;

3 taps on horn when the piece in the forge is almost ready = Striker needed, come to anvil.

There are 3 different sized sledges for the striker, after striker shows up. 1 tap for 6 lb , 2 taps for 8 lb., 3 taps for 12 lb.

After lead smith starts working on the piece. 1 tap for Start striking, after striker starts striking, 1 tap for softer blow, 2 taps for heavier blow, lead smiths hammer laid on its side on anvil, Stop striking.

With a striker I am not familiar with, I just use words or set out the sledge I want used, and use words like softer, harder, stop.

I also use 2 small platforms for the striker to stand on so that they can stand at the right height to deliver a fair and square blow with their sledge, from expierience I have found out its easier to deliver a better blow and a lot easier on the strikers shoulders if they are at the right height for striking, especially when striking a top tool. And the sledge handles are cut off to about 24 inches so they don't have to fight the sledge handle to the side when striking.

I guess I am what would be called an Old School Smith.

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Hello,
Cool! I never knew or heard of any of this info! The info I had about not striking the anvil, and the referance to a "lazy" blacksmith came from Alex Bealer's book. It's like steam engines and trains, there is a reason they have horns and whistles, other than to tell you they're coming! The farm traction engines where in use well before radios or cellphones, and there was alot going on with a threshing crew.

Thanks
Richard

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VERY interesting information about the 'conversation' between smith and striker.

Actually, the ringing that I do is very much like inrsrgn described. It's not a blow, just a tap as gravity from the hammer's upward bounce after striking the piece falls on the face. And it's when I'm ready to turn or rotate the piece. It does sort of keep a cadence going so that there's no hiccups in my pace as I turn a piece.

edited 'cause my spelling stinks today

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Yes, good stuff. Printed a copy for my notes.

I think the lack of a striker language is just that we don't get much chance to either be strikers or work with a striker. In all the experience I've had, the communication was all spoken.

As far as ringing the anvil, it is a tap, not a hard strike. I was never taught to do it or not, and never really made any effort one way or another. After a couple years of forging, I just kind of found myself doing it. Generally it happens when I'm finishing up. If I'm really trying to move metal, every blow goes into the work.

It was convenient that this coincidental ringing of the anvil started happening just about the time I started doing public demonstrations. Good thing, because it helps draw people and they expect it.

Steve

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Just a funny note -- I recruited a temporary striker not too long ago for a little bit of work, and I found that a lot of this "dialogue" is fairly instinctive. Five taps is long enough to be attention getting, tapping/striking where you want your striker to hit is pretty natural. Very fun, too! (Even when it was me swinging the hammer :) )

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the anvil signals about got it right the ringing up strikers is more of a rattle on the anvil rather than 5 or so rings, during the anchor forging this spring we got 4 strikers going ,in fair time , the gang improved over the job and at the end of 3 days ,if a anchor making competition was set up the gang we got together this year would take some bettering ,the difrence striking on a bigger job is the heat holds up and the men get tired whilst the job is still at a good forging heat and fresh men get on so there is plenty time to get the striking timing sorted out

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elkdoc: It's your anvil. (I presume) So you do whatever you want to it, as long as you are using it and making things. The anvil is just a tool.

Any absent minded tapping you do will hardly be enough to mark or damage a decent anvil. Just always think relaxed and fluid and comfortable when you work at an anvil with your hammer. If that involves some occasional hammer bobbing, knock yourself out.

Other people may have an issue with that on their anvils. Don't bother using their anvils.

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Interesting post on the striking and the tapping. Ah... let me see who shall I go with? I'll go with Irnsrgn on the tapping. As for the striking I'm flat out explaining to my boy what "Hey matey, can you give us a hit" means let alone explaining what the tapping and dragging and striking signals are all about that's if I can work them out myself.

The last time I was confronted with the German/European system was striking for a bloke I'd never met before who assumed that just because I was willing to swing a sledge for him, at the expense of my own work, I knew all the signals with out any need for a lesson. In the end they all meant the same...if you get the system wrong be prepared to cop a serve.
I didn't take long to gracefully lay the sledge up against his anvil and walk away.

The No talking (explaining/questioning) part of the system was the killer.

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I've done a bit of striking and had folks strike for me. The only signals we use are two taps from the smith before the first blow means follow with a strike, and when done the smith lays the hammer on the anvil as the striker completes his last blow. I have had no problem striking for strangers up and down the east coast with just these simple codes. We use treadle and power hammers for everything else.

Since the original question didn't ask about striking, I wasn't going to get into this, but I like what Strine said. The "I quit" signal is just about unmistakable and crosses all sorts of language barriers. 8)

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the original posting on this thread was about ringing (?) the anvil. This is a balance step for me sometimes. I just relax the arm and let the hammer go to the side to look at the forging and see how I like it. you take a look at a drywall guy and his mud tray in his right hand, taping knife in the other. Watch 2 guys at the same time. They'll be the same but different in the way they scrape their knife on the mortar tray. It's balance. Watch a mason laying brick and buttering each brick (or block). they all the same but they all different. This is some ways makes a comparison to forging steel on an anvil. you can talk till you blue in the face about it. I let the hammer arm rest a bit and relax the grip a bit and the hammer taps the anvil between forging blows sometimes. this ain't something I really practiced or prayed for. I noticed it happening in other smiths over the years. One day it just happened to me. It is an unconcious thing I think. Tapping lightly on the anvil hurts neither the anvil nor the hammer. I have virtually no experience in striker duty so no comment there. Regards

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I have been following this with great interest and it would seem that at least some of Eurpoe has system of communication between the blacksmith and the striker.

A series of rings on the anvil gets your attention. After that we need to quickly set up a communication skill to convey our intentions. The blacksmith is the one in control of the process. He is also responsible for explaining to the striker what signals are to be used for a specific action.

Strine's "lay the sledge up against his anvil and walk away" is not only universal in translation, but many times the only safe thing to do if signals are unclear.


As to the original post on taping: I will hit the metal instead of the anvil. Only because I was told that it still does a little work, and provides a "rest" for the arm in multiple swings. I can not recall the hit/rest ratio but do know that it varies with the nature of the work.

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I liked what Tenhammers said about tapping just happenning without him noticing. I liked the way he brought a different trade into the picture as well. I am learning to play Irish music and always thought that the blokes who could tap (even stomp) in time with the music was really cool and added an extra dimension to the music. So I forced myself to tap my foot alas to the great detriment of my playing. :oops: Realising it had a bad effect I disappointlingy gave it away. Lo and behold as I got better at playing, the foot tapping just happened. Where once upon a time it made my playing worse it now makes it better.

So Elkdoc, my considered spin on the subject of ringing the anvil is don't worry about it. Just let nature take its course. If you do and you make nice stuff or if you don't and you make nice stuff who cares, it's the 'nice stuff' part that's important. 8)

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Well Jr. I agree totally. I do tap the anvil. I mostly work 1/4 and 3/8 material doing mostly hooks and johnny lamps, and other small items. You see I am about a year into this and stick heavy to the basics to make it second nature and consistant. When I am drawing out 1/4 round to S hooks I can usually get into a groove and when i turn it or am getting ready to increase my hammer rate to go from square to round I do tap the anvil. It is a personal thing to help me keep in time with my hammer and my heat. I don't see anything wrong in it. If you do, then you do. And if you don't then you don't. The way I see it there is not right or wrong here.

It does't matter to me how the piece got into shape, just matters how good it looks in the end! Taps or no Taps!
peyton

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