stuarthesmith Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I have had, over the last 38 years, well in excess of 100 london pattern anvils. I have used many of them, and noticed some patterns regarding quality and differences between the different brands of anvil available. This is what I have learned, after buying, using, selling, and lending all these anvils over the years. A lot of newbies ask me, on this forum, what type of anvil they should get. Maybe this can help them I have owned a number of hay buddens. I currently have four of them in my shop, ranging from 700 lbs. down to 240 lbs. They all have several things in common. First of all, they all have hard faces. I have used them HARD for decades, and yet they still show no signs of sway. They all ring loudly, indicating sound welding when they were manufactured. And all of them have pretty hard faces. The taper of all my hay budden horns are very graceful, not too fat nor too thin. The dozens I have sold, many to IFI members, all had these traits in common. I really like hay buddens, as you folks can tell! Not to mention that they were made in the USA! I also like the fact that the three hay buddens I own over 300 lbs. all have uniform hardy hole sizes, a smidge over inch and a quarter square. Methinks that Hay Budden had high standards of quality control in their factory. I have owned many more Peter Wrights than Hay Buddens. I think the reason for this is that Peter Wrights may be more common, even in America. When I served my apprenticeship, back in the late seventies, we had a 512 lb. Peter Wright in the shop that was wonderful. It had the same characteristics as Hay Buddens, graceful, hard, ringing, and tough. However, I have had Peter Wrights that were dogs! Delaminated face plates, crumbling edges, bellied faces, and other woes found on these anvils indicates to me that Peter Wrights are either hit or miss, you get a wonderful one, or you get a mutt! The first anvil I ever owned was a Peter Wright 220 pounder that was beautiful!!!!!!!!! My younger brother still has it in his shop, and is still using that anvil, which is an excellent anvil. When purchasing a Peter Wright, the prospective buyer needs to examine the anvil carefully, looking for faceplate delamination. The buyer should also do a ball bearing test to make sure of rebound. All the Peter Wrights I have sold in here were carefully examined by myself, to make sure that none of them were faulty. Caveat Emptor! Another excellent anvil is the Fisher Eagle, made of cast iron with a thick steel plate atop of it. These anvils are extremely tough, and I have rarely seen them belly out. They do not ring, because of the way they were manufactured. They are ideal if you want a hard, tough, durable, rebounding anvil that is not going to deafen you. I have a 400 lber that I use regularly in my shop, and I love it! I manufacture anvil hardies, and drop the forged shanks of them into my fisher eagle hardy hole to shoulder the shanks with sharp shoulders. These anvils are perfect for this because they are thick at the heel, so there are no worries about breaking the anvil's heel off while striking the fat end of the hardy with a 20 lb. sledgehammer. Like I said, fishers are workhorses. And, by the way, they are also american-made! I have also owned Swedish steel anvils, such as Kohlswas and Paragons. They were all excellent anvils, with the same good characteristics as Hay Buddens, and even a tad harder than Hay Buddens. There is only one drawback to these anvils. I am hearing impaired because of using a Kohlswa. The ringing produced by these anvils is deafening. This is why I gave all my swedish anvils to my two brothers, who have shops. I recently also acquired a Mousehole anvil. The anvil had a stocky shape, with a thick heel and a horn shorter than peter wrights and hay buddens. What I didn't like about it was the belly in the middle of the face. I have had conversations with blacksmiths who resurface and retool old anvils, and they all tell me that Mouseholes lacking bellied faces are a rarity. I pointed out a flat-faced Mousehole at a local flea market to one of my guild members, who jumped on it with the quickness, appreciating the fact that this particular anvil wasn't bellied. Just call him "Lucky", I guess! Lastly, I recently acquired my first Trenton, forged in Germany. It is very much similar to my Hay Buddens, right down to the shape. I actually LOVE this anvil. It has all the good characteristics intrinsic to a good anvil, hard, tough, rebounding, and ringing. I highly recommend these anvils. As far as other brands, I have bought and sold Vulcans, which are mediocre in quality(most of them have cracked or crumbling edges on the face), and aso's, both new and old. Many of the old aso's I have had, made out of cast iron and such, had severe damage to them, like busted off horns and heels, severe chipping, etc. Stay away from them unless there is no other alternative. It is better to save one's money to get a good anvil to start off with than to suffer the vicissitudes of a junker anvil and get turned off to this craft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 The late 19th century top brand american anvils tend toward very elongated examples of the london pattern with long horns and long very thin heels. Very handy for much ornamental work but not as good for hard heavy hammering on a business basis. They also tend to ring loudly due to the tuning fork effect. If one was choosing an anvil for one's shop you might want to decided what type of work you will be doing and get the style that's best for that---or do what I did: I bought a Large Fisher and Large Trenton and just use the one that's best for the part of the project I'm working on! (even so I have a 93# Arm and Hammer next to the 515# Fisher as there are things that having an extremely thin heel to work over is handy and I prefer that to a bridge.) My HB has a HARD THICK face on it. Students don't seem to dent it---and they have tried! (On the other hand I believe it has dented a student or two when they miss the workpiece and ricochet the hammer off the anvil...) If you look through the 19th century catalogs you will be amazed at the large number of specialized anvil shapes that were commonly listed in them. "Double Pike Coachmaker's anvil, Chain Anvils, saw makers anvils, farrier's anvils,...; and many manufacturers did custom work as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechnicusJoe Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Nice piece Stuart, nice to read. Lots of info. about the "London pattern" style. A piece about the European (double horn) anvils would a good addition to this thread, I think. For a long time, at least for me it is, I have used double horned Kohlswa anvils. Like Stuart says; they're great anvil about 55HRc hard. Though they can be loud. This is not weird or special, as they are made of cast steel. This can easily be resolved by placing lead under the anvil, silicon, putting magnets under the horn, chains around the waist or just wear ear plugs (it's that easy). If you get deaf by using loud anvils, it's your own responsibility. The reason I like the double horn anvils is not only because of their esthetics, but also functionality. There are jobs you can easily do on the square horn of the anvil, which you would otherwise would have to make a special tool for on a London pattern anvil. Another nice feature on these anvils is the upsetting block, attached between the feet of the anvil. They enable you to upset stock easily. Because it's lower than the face, so you won't have to hold your stock as low and hammer high like you will have to if you do this on the face. (Leaving short stock out of the picture.) Something that is also different on these anvils, is the placement of the holes. The hardy hole is located near the round horn of these anvils and the pritchle hole is located near the square horn. An advantage this gives you, is that you can have a tool in the hardy hole and still use pritchle hole without having to worry about damaging the body. (Situation: Round horn to the left and being right handed. If you're left handed, the round horn should be on the right hand side.) besides that, the center body mass is usually bigger than the London pattern style, making the so-called "sweet spot" bigger. Two other brands that still make great anvils today: Refflinghaus and Peddinghaus. Refflinghaus is a German company that has made anvils since 1886. They forged anvils completely piece by piece till 1956. At this time improvements in casting came and they started casting parts. But they still forge welded the steel face onto the anvil body. This stopped in 1975, because of further improvements in casting that enabled them to cast the anvils completely out of cast steel. These early Refflinghaus anvils had a hardness of roughly 52HRc. Nowadays they raised their standard and sell cast steel anvils with a hardness of atleast 59HRc an inch deep guarranteed. Peddinghaus, also a German company that has served the steel industries since 1903. The first head of the company was Paul F. Peddinghaus (till 1930), under his name the first Peddinghaus anvils were made. These anvils were the double horn anvils as previously described and also single horn anvils, but with their own characteristic look. You can't miss them. They made the top of the anvil (till the waist) of drop forged steel. These tops were then forge welded to a cast steel set of feet. These were high quality! Their hardness was around 60 HRc. If you have an old model like I do (see display picture) they can have a hardness of 65HRc (most likely because of work hardening). To most people this is probably insanely high. But I still haven't experienced any down sides about it, only up sides. It draws material faster and acts like a heavier anvil then it actually is (my case: 300 pounds). I can hit the edges with a hammer and they won't chip. So, they must have done something right! The Peddinghaus brand was passed on over the years, till Ridgid Co. took over the anvils. Sadly the quality is less than the older models. They weigh less heavy (275 pounds max. to date.), their hardness is only 54HRc and they arc weld the top and bottom together instead of forge welding. Still, they are great anvils. I would choose a drop forged steel anvil over a cast steel anvil, because of the difference in structure. Like Stuart says, make a good investment in a good anvil and get it right the first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 An anvil is just another tool - but they border on idolatry to some smiths. Whitaker once said (perhaps rhetorically), "Can you do better work on your 250 than I can do on my 150?" Look at what Brian Brazeal can do on one of his plate anvils and that "investment" question suddenly becomes quite murky. There was a lot of very good work being done before the London or German or Hungarian or Japanese or Martian pattern was invented... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 excuse me, Mr. Wooldridge, but were we talking size or brand name.......................size is a topic for another thread, sir! And I love your profile pic, showing that name brand anvil in it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 to both thomas powers and technicus joe, excellent addenda to my thread................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 As the person who coined the term "Anvil Envy" I can say that most smiths will want a bigger/better/XYZ anvil even when they have a perfectly usable one to hand. Also a highly skilled smith can do more and better work using a chunk of rock as an anvil than a low skilled smith with the bestest anvil out there. Most of us are constrained by what we can find and what we can afford and we may dream about the rare pristine 1000 pound anvil; but do our work pretty durn well on the 150# one we found. When I teach I bring along my 25# Roman style stake anvil to show students that they don't need to wait till they can find/afford a london (or continental) pattern anvil; basically a cube of steel will do to get started. (OTOH it's sure nice to get back to the 515# Fisher when I need to do some heavy work!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I think the reason Mouseholes tend to be found so worn is because they tend to be older than other makes. Were imported into the US in large quantities from the colonial period to the Civil War and after. The other makes didn't really hit the market until the 1880's and later for the exception of Fisher. Also during this time period there were really no power hammers found in blacksmiths shops only large forges were likely to have trip hammers. So most likely they saw lots of heavy striking with sledge hammers. I am obviously speaking in general terms here there are always exceptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 excuse me, Mr. Wooldridge, but were we talking size or brand name.......................size is a topic for another thread, sir! And I love your profile pic, showing that name brand anvil in it! Pffft...size, brand - it's all the same conversation. And yes, that's a 250 PW - it's the only one I own since I only have one arm to hammer with. I'm not skilled enough to be "ambihammextrous"... :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 I sure wish I was ambidexterous.....................then I could face my anvil horns towards each other with no worries, like two charging rhinos! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Should be a drummer, fairly easy to switch hammering hands after years of drumming. ;-) No love for A&H?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Arm and hammer anvils are very rare in the east. I have seen a total of 2 in NY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I love my Ohio made anvils---Trenton and Arm and Hammer and my Ohio made Post vises---Columbians Just wish I had a Columbian anvil to round out the OH collection. OTOH I'm pretty down on Vulcans and would be happy to show you why if you ever stop by my smithy for a tour of my "wall of shame" collection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatfudd Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Thank you Stewart! I appreciate all you have stated. I clearly don't have the kind of experiance some of you have but I thought I could add a few observations. I have 4 Hay Buddens now and have had several other brands in the past. I had a long narrow 150lb Trenton which I have regretted selling for many years. Also, an Arm and Hammer which was one of the nicest anvils I ever owned. To add to your discussion of Hay Buddens, I have a 240lb (made in 1895) that someone decided to resurface the face. They didn't take it off evenly but rather sloped it straight down from the hardie hole to the step above the table. At the deepest they took about 1/4in off at the step above the table. The surface is still slightly dented, gouged, pitted but is still very hard. A one inch steel ball will still give an 85% bounce. in the sweet spot This anvil was obviously used a great deal after being resurfaced and I have used it for years as my main shop anvil. At the heal the face plate is more than 5/8 in thick so at the step its slightly less than 1/2in thick but shows no sway at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 This was Brian Brazeal's setup when he demoed in Austin in 2004. You can't see it but there is a small (50-75 lb) anvil behind the plate that I think he used once or twice to turn something over the horn. Maybe he'll read this thread and chime in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I love my Ohio made anvils---Trenton and Arm and Hammer and my Ohio made Post vises---Columbians Just wish I had a Columbian anvil to round out the OH collection. I know a guy with a very nice 200# Columbian for sale, not cheap though.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Nothing wrong with unorthodox anvils or new ideas for anvils. If you reread my original post, I wrote this to help newbies; to point them in the right direction. Is anyone here disparaging new ideas for anvils? I am absolutely sure that Brian Brazeal does wonderful work on the anvil you pictured. Most newbies won't come in contact with that style anvil, though...................hence this roadmap post describing commonly available choices for anvils..............by the way, do you like your Peter Wright? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Nothing wrong with unorthodox anvils or new ideas for anvils. If you reread my original post, I wrote this to help newbies; to point them in the right direction. Is anyone here disparaging new ideas for anvils? I am absolutely sure that Brian Brazeal does wonderful work on the anvil you pictured. Most newbies won't come in contact with that style anvil, though...................hence this roadmap post describing commonly available choices for anvils..............by the way, do you like your Peter Wright? Stew, I appreciate you took the time to write the original post but that information already exists in some form on this and other sites - so it's a bit of a rehash. Your comments about the different makes are entirely accurate but a week from now, somebody will come here and ask for opinions on buying a Haybudden...so perhaps the thread should be a sticky? My point is that lots of items can function as anvils if you are creative enough to recognize the potential - which is why I posted the pic of Brian's setup. I personally think newbies should focus more on the capability to take a proper heat rather than stressing about anvils, because a piece of iron at the right temperature can still be forged on a cast iron ASO - but a "cold" piece won't move on the best (pick your favorite brand) anvil. In addition, although it seems to rain mint-condition anvils in your area, it can be a desert in other parts of the country so the dedicated newbie might waste a lot of time looking for one. Since you asked, I'll also share the story of my PW. When I became interested in blacksmithing over 30 years ago, I started looking for an anvil and had no luck - for many months. I finally found a real beater PW, with a dished and broken face, a crack thru the hardy hole and a heavily gouged horn. I traded the owner for two old .44 carbines then hauled the anvil home and went to work repairing it. I was too ignorant to know it would be a chore to weld on a new face made from an old crawler spring, with hardy and pritchel filed to shape, and I didn't have an experienced mentor to tell me that I was crazy to attempt hardening the new face using a custom coal forge I built especially for the purpose but the Lord smiled on my endeavors and it worked out just fine in the end. I've owned and sold several other anvils but this PW was my first. I recouped the monetary investment a hundred fold with the work that has flowed across it and will never part with it because of the blood, sweat and tears - but I sure wish I'd seen Brian's design 30 years ago...since it would have saved me a lot of time and trouble - and I might still have my two rifles. I've gone on too long now but I hope you see my reasons for responding and that no personal attack was intended. Peace, bro' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 it is not a rehash because this is an amalgamated post, generalist, on buying anvils....................it is a "rehash" of a compendium of information, all drawn together into a primer on anvil selection...............which I do not see on this forum, so this compendium is in fact original Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Perhaps we need a sticky with the various brands of anvils listed and opinions on each one so newbies won't get misled into paying HB prices for a Vulcan... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 it is not a rehash because this is an amalgamated post, generalist, on buying anvils....................it is a "rehash" of a compendium of information, all drawn together into a primer on anvil selection...............which I do not see on this forum, so this compendium is in fact original I totally agree with Stewart. And I do not understand anyone criticizing him for creating this topic or for taking his time to put together his original post. I thought it was a good topic, and one that can be added to. I will be glad to add any info on FISHER anvils, my specialty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I totally agree with Stewart. And I do not understand anyone criticizing him for creating this topic or for taking his time to put together his original post. I thought it was a good topic, and one that can be added to. I will be glad to add any info on FISHER anvils, my specialty. The written word is the most imperfect medium of communication so perhaps I seemed overly critical but I've been a member of the forum for seven years and see the same type of info posted over and over again in one form or another. If you doubt me, do a search on Peter Wright, or Fisher, or Trenton, or any other name brand mentioned in the original post. Even better, go buy a copy of Postman's book, "Anvils in America" and you'll have the whole compendium of anvil lore at your fingertips. Stewart put it together with different sentences and a few other people posted their opinions so perhaps a mod could do what I suggested earlier, and...MAKE IT INTO A STICKY (please feel free to delete my comments since they obviously add no value). I also bristled at the "save your money and buy a good anvil" advice because that could delay some people for many months from trying to forge something. Based on what I read here, it would appear there is a virtual plethora of anvils on the East coast, all in pristine or nearly so condition, and ranging in price from $1/lb down to "free". Those events do occur in other parts of the country but I would venture they are few and far between. I have a nice anvil and don't need another but I read Craigslist every day looking for blacksmith tools in particular and an anvil shows up every 4-6 months or so. This is near San Antonio, Texas - which is the 7th largest city in the country - so consider yourselves lucky. I hereby fall on my sword and apologize profusely to all in the web universe who were harmed by my excessively harsh responses to an innocent and informative thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted October 6, 2012 Author Share Posted October 6, 2012 I am not rehashing other people's opinions. I am relating personal experience with all sorts of anvils. Timothy is right, btw, I have only seen two arm and hammers in my life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 About the anvil face, "bellied" or "swaybacked?" Just nit pickin'. The American/English horns might be described as bellied when compared to the Continental anvil. Many of the Continental round horns are like a cone with the base cut at a diagonal to the central axis.'' The farriers' pattern is a whole other ball game with it's narrow face and swelled horn. Because of the swell, this pattern never had a cutting table in front of the step. I have twins! Got two 250# Trentons in the shop. I used one of them for 35 years with success. A good anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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