Rick Barter Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I am curious to know what you all use for designing/drawing to give clients ideas, to show that you understand what your client wants, to experiment with different designs and whether or not they will look right. I am primarily asking with regard to ornamental/architectural iron (grilles, gates, screens, etc.), but would love to hear from anyone. I am trying to figure out what I can use. Thanks, rvb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Hi from Columbia Kentucky! I did an art show in LaGrange Ky a few months back. I do large drawings on thick sketch paper. I usually start with a scaled down drawing, then upscale, then layout onto a table for drawing. If a client wants it, I'll make a couple of sample pieces. Stainless steel rulers, squares, compass, decent pencils and erasers, that pretty much sums it up for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle Brooks Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Ill start it by hand to get my scale laid out then its scanned and swap between photoshop and autodesk sketch book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 When I first started I would show the client books like the CoSIRA Catalogue of Drawings, now available free on line, in order to get a meeting of the minds. It was a big help. I would do hand sketches from there. Now I start with sketches and then use AutoCAD for the final drawings. This has been helpful as the drawings are full scale so I can print them out actual size and use them for templates in the shop and also to get laser cutting done for parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blakksmyth Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Hi, I have been using Rhinoceros 3d since it's inception. It is up to version 5 now and version 4 can be downloaded and has 25 saves. http://www.rhino3d.com/ The program is medium priced at $995 US and with a decent render program like Keyshot http://www.keyshot.com/, can generate photo realistic shots of your designs that you can show to a customer and get a sale before you even light the forge. Not only that, but Rhino it can measure your design for weight, center of gravity, Interference and bill of materials. Another program that is free is Google sketchup for 3d design, although it may be a trial to draw artistic scrolls and ornamental work. Finally, another freebie 2d draft program is Draftsight http://www.3ds.com/p...sight/overview/ to generate working drawings. I should mention that with Rhino you can scan your hand drawings into the program and over lay with lines, splines, solids and surfaces. Good Hunting. Rob Kenning Treasurer Artistic Blacksmiths Association South Australia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whirly Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Paper and pen/cil, but more often than not chalk on top of the work bench.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I use paper pen and then I ink the drawing when its done than I scan it in to the computer and send it as s PDF. I like the hand drawing of the project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Paper and pencil, small sketches for ideas, refined on larger size, pencil or charcoal on paper, and then full scale drawing on paper with pencil and then finished with ink, a big fat black permanent marker usually!! I never used to do full scale drawings, but I am doing them more and more now, as I am finding that they really help with finding snags in the design and the fit. Having said that I do fairly small scale work, small railings or gates no more than 2m long, so I might rethink if I had to do something on a much bigger scale. For more freeform ideas, like Whirly I do a lot of drawing on my workbench () with soapstone (engineers chalk)!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Barter Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Nice! Thanks, everyone. I have done hand drawings so far too. I am not that good at drawing scrolls and such. Anne, I am very interested in your method for doing the full-scale drawings. I would find that most helpful too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Barter Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Hey there neighbor! You're only about 2 1/2 hours away from me! Maybe I should swing by your shop one of these days. :) Hi from Columbia Kentucky! I did an art show in LaGrange Ky a few months back. I do large drawings on thick sketch paper. I usually start with a scaled down drawing, then upscale, then layout onto a table for drawing. If a client wants it, I'll make a couple of sample pieces. Stainless steel rulers, squares, compass, decent pencils and erasers, that pretty much sums it up for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Rick, I have A1sized heavy paper/card so I lay it out and tape it together to cover the span of the drawing, (ideally you could use paper rolls). I either do this on the floor at home, I have a good sized floor space in my living room, or I have a drawing table at my workshop, but on that I can only do a section at a time, so I prefer to sprall out over the floor, or you could do it on a wall, walls of my workshop are corrugated sheet though, so doesn't lend itself very well to drawing on!! I use the bottom of the paper as the ground level, you can draw out the stairs, or wall or whatever features you need, etc. I draw out the measurements I have made on site, and then just literally draw out the design as it would appear, full size to measurements. You can then roll this up and take it to the site and sometimes discover that you need to change something on the design because of some unforseen thing, or usually just something you haven't taken into account at the time. Like I said, I have only used this for smaller jobs, so it might not work for much bigger ones, this I have yet to discover. By the way I only do this full scale drawing if a smaller design has been agreed upon, and I have received a deposit for the thing! I also bill the client for the time spent drawing and designing after the initial rough sketches, for me those are what I need to do to get the job, but the scale drawing is part of the job itself. If I need to I transfer the drawing to my work bench, I do this by rubbing over the back with chalk, and then drawing over top to transfer it to the work table, or often I will just wet the paper and use the drawing as a template. I am by no means an expert, but this is what I do and it works for me and I would welcome any tips also. I have thought about using CAD programs but I already spend too long in front of the computer, and I enjoy the drawing process. And, my name is Colleen, "Anne Ville" was a bit of a silly joke and I've been meaning to change it back but not got round to it!! Kentucky is a beautiful state, my father has been attending the Derby, for many, many years, I went when I was 10! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Barter Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 Thank you so much for your nice reply and compliment of my state! I love Kentucky! For the gate you see in my profile picture, I just freelanced the design based loosely on some window grilles I made for the client. I made the frame and then drew with chalk on the inside of the frame right on the floor. It worked ok. I'm trying to get better at the design and drawing process. I lost money on the gate job. I did 2 sets of drawings the customer didn't like and didn't bill an hour for it. :( Do you give them a quote or tell them an hourly rate once they have approved the design? BTW, your Anne Ville is a cute idea. I just didn't understand it at first. I have a tendency to be too serious. :) Rick, I have A1sized heavy paper/card so I lay it out and tape it together to cover the span of the drawing, (ideally you could use paper rolls). I either do this on the floor at home, I have a good sized floor space in my living room, or I have a drawing table at my workshop, but on that I can only do a section at a time, so I prefer to sprall out over the floor, or you could do it on a wall, walls of my workshop are corrugated sheet though, so doesn't lend itself very well to drawing on!! I use the bottom of the paper as the ground level, you can draw out the stairs, or wall or whatever features you need, etc. I draw out the measurements I have made on site, and then just literally draw out the design as it would appear, full size to measurements. You can then roll this up and take it to the site and sometimes discover that you need to change something on the design because of some unforseen thing, or usually just something you haven't taken into account at the time. Like I said, I have only used this for smaller jobs, so it might not work for much bigger ones, this I have yet to discover. By the way I only do this full scale drawing if a smaller design has been agreed upon, and I have received a deposit for the thing! I also bill the client for the time spent drawing and designing after the initial rough sketches, for me those are what I need to do to get the job, but the scale drawing is part of the job itself. If I need to I transfer the drawing to my work bench, I do this by rubbing over the back with chalk, and then drawing over top to transfer it to the work table, or often I will just wet the paper and use the drawing as a template. I am by no means an expert, but this is what I do and it works for me and I would welcome any tips also. I have thought about using CAD programs but I already spend too long in front of the computer, and I enjoy the drawing process. And, my name is Colleen, "Anne Ville" was a bit of a silly joke and I've been meaning to change it back but not got round to it!! Kentucky is a beautiful state, my father has been attending the Derby, for many, many years, I went when I was 10! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I don't know a Cad from an R2D2. Old fashioned I guess...kind of like Whitaker in that regard. He said that he had a computer, and he held up and showed a sharpened pencil. For a presentation drawing, I usually make it on paper and scaled down, if a large project. I go over my lines with a caligraphy pen, free hand. I sometimes rough-shade the steel, sometimes not. When getting to the nitty gritty in the shop, I can arc weld a module frame: square, rectangular, circular, oval, whatever. Then, if a scroll is to fit the module, I take an oversized scroll form, rotate it until it fits the module, making a rough allowance for the material thickness. I mark the form, and make a test piece scroll. I adjust as necessary. I do not try to draw a scroll and make a scroll form to fit the drawing. It'll drive ya' crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOblacksmith0530 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I use pencil and paper, I start with concept rough sketches for ideas for the client. That may even be after the first meeting when I see the site and see what their interests are. Then scale drawings with the detail and discuss with the client again. If we have a meeting of the minds (and pocket books) then we go, I have offered to do full size drawings a couple of times when I was sure they would bite but it was never necessary. Then I go to the shop and make full size drawings. Often on the work table or floor. I seldom have more than one large(ish) item in the shop at a time. I have bought a cad program or two but found them too difficult to use, hand drawing was much faster for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Barter Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Frank, might this be demonstrated in your class? :) I received your hard-copy brochure. I did something similar to your process for the gate and grilles I made. I welded up the frames laid them down on the floor of my barn and drew scrolls with soapstone. However, I would have liked to make sketches/drawings to which the customer could agree and from which I could give an estimate. My wife will be my guinea pig on the next project. She wants a 'scroll-y piece for the mantel'. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel.85 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Pencil and paper and google SketchUp for some projects Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Rick, You betcha! When drawing to scale, it helps to use inch-lined paper with inter inch lines, as well. This paper is usually sold with pale blue fine lines There are different types of scrolls and ones with various ratios even though they may be the same size overall. There is a golden ratio scroll, an Archimedes spiral, eliptical scrolls, etc. It is best to learn how to free hand them with mucho practice than to try to plot them via geometric tricks. Making a scroll form (jig) is shown in "The Blacksmith's Craft." You need to be able to visualize. Francis Whitaker said, "If you can't see it, you can't make it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Barter Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 Well, let me go find my copy and look at it again! I anticipate my butt being in your class in May! Rick, You betcha! When drawing to scale, it helps to use inch-lined paper with inter inch lines, as well. This paper is usually sold with pale blue fine lines There are different types of scrolls and ones with various ratios even though they may be the same size overall. There is a golden ratio scroll, an Archimedes spiral, eliptical scrolls, etc. It is best to learn how to free hand them with mucho practice than to try to plot them via geometric tricks. Making a scroll form (jig) is shown in "The Blacksmith's Craft." You need to be able to visualize. Francis Whitaker said, "If you can't see it, you can't make it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Sorry!! I retract "The Blacksmith's Craft." The scroll form is in its companion volume, "Wrought Ironwork" out of London, England. It is a free download if you can find the right url. It kept changing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Barter Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 Now you have me on a hunt! Is it the companion to the COSIRA "The Blacksmith's Craft"? Thanks for your help. Sorry!! I retract "The Blacksmith's Craft." The scroll form is in its companion volume, "Wrought Ironwork" out of London, England. It is a free download if you can find the right url. It kept changing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Barter Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 I think I found it! The guy that has beautifuliron.com had it posted. Here is the link to the books so everyone may enjoy them: http://www.beautifuliron.com/links_blacksmith_farrier.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I think the download address may be this; http://www.hct.ac.uk...blications.html [from the Department of Redundancy Department]. I forget whether the book talked about right or left handed scroll jigs. Right handers tend to walk around the finished tool clockwise. If you're right handed and with the offset fishtail forged and trimmed, the point of the half-fishtail is to your left as you bend the scroll center downward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Barter Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 BTW, Page 35 in this file ----> WROUGHT IRONWORK PART 3_tcm2-18921.pdf tells about making the scroll jig. Thanks, Frank! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Barter Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 Oh wow! If I had this book a year ago, I would have made money on my gate job!!! I had the worst time with C-scrolls doing them by hand. I couldn't get both sides to come out even because I couldn't reach all the way in when bending freehand. I wound up bending each close to where they were to finish then taking a full heat on the scroll, standing it on end, and giving it a good pop with the hammer to bring the ends toward each other and bulge the back (which was straight) out into a graceful C. Let's just say I learned a lot about doing scrolls freehand. And my pile of junk scrolls was bigger than my good scrolls. But, they all became something else (welding jigs, welding practice, scrap, something to step on). ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZIG Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I got some chalk board paint. Put It on plywood. And I can use big kids crayons. They draw with in tjr driveway with. I have the plywood on a layout table. And on the wall too. So I can play around making it all fit right. But I Don't do huge gates. But for various things. I can leave tjr chalk crayons on there. Use different colors for different pieces. And I can hold my pieces up against the board to check against it. If and when the chalk board get to heat scarred up. I can repaint it or flip It over. But I use my shop floor with that colored chalk at times. Just rather stay standing up most I can. The colors hejp me. Especially when doing mirror images of things. Just my way. Plus its easy And cheap. When I run out of plywood. I'm gonna see about hardier board. Concrete stuff. To lay on the table painted all chalkboard black. Anyone else use kids section items to layout things. ? I keep my draft table and tools for That on my desk. To transpose the measurments. And have a couple pieces of sheet metal for the HVAC Guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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