ironstein Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I've had this chunk of armor plating that i got when i built some explosives magazines for the Navy. I'll post some pictures tomorrow when i'm at the shop. It is 4 or 5 inches thick, by 12" by 18". It has the grind lines on it like you used to see on WWII tanks. The chunk of steel is super tough, my bandsaw couldn't cut it till i got some super aggressive scandavik blade stock, even then it took a while to cut through it. I have roughed out two hammer dies for my anyang 88. I copied the dovetail from my existing dies. I recently bought a DoAll three wheel metal bandsaw (which i love!) and since i don't have any machining equipment, i cut the dovetails on my bandsaw. Worked pretty good too! I used my surface grinder to true everything up. I know i will probably have to take a piece of this steel to a lab to know for sure what it is, i was just wondering if anyone has an idea what type of steel is used in armor plating? I have a paragon heat treating oven, and i would like to be able to make hammer dies myself. Paying $425 for a set of dies seems a bit steep, and i don't mind paying top dollar for tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Good Morning, I'd be surprised if you have to heat treat them. I made some dies from T-1, 2 1/2" salvage plate, about 15 years ago. Still work good, Sometimes they need a little kiss with the grinder, oh well!! Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewOC Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Over here we could pay $425 for the 'die' steel by itself. Sounds like a good thing. A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 Heres some pictures. The hunk of armor plate was shot with some sort of projectile, i ground off the sharp edges that spalled. i cut one section off to make two dies, they will be 4 inches wide, the original die is 4 3/4". I tapered the new dies dovetail the opposite direction as i can still key in from the other direction. I also included a pic of my new vertical bandsaw. I am amazed at what one can accomplish with a bandsaw and surface grinder. Not too bad for not having a mill! Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 @Andrew, Yes, i wouldn't mind paying $425 for a set of dies, i just wasn't that impressed with the Anyang dies. If this works out like i hope, i can make a few sets of custom dies for texturing and such, and have some blanks for future use. I will harden a piece of this steel and do some tests to see what i can expect. If i can find a lab to tell me what the composition is, i will figure out a heat treating method. I priced some S-7 for hammer dies and i can get a stick that would make about ten dies for the price of one set! Most of this process has been undertaken just because i had this chunk of good steel laying around for a few years. thanks for the responses! Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 Heres some pictures you can actually see! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Looks cool Brian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Im making a set of dies for a Goliath spring hammer at the moment. 'mates rates' is £400, ie that will just about cover the material, labour for the milling machine operator, and a tiny bit towards shop overhead! (will do them as a 'fill in' job, so I wont actually loose out on the deal) ! Be carefull not to knacker your dovetails with badly fitting dies and keys, a very false ecconomy in the long run! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOblacksmith0530 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I used to work at a place that had a pulverizer for engine blocks etc. The plate lining the inside where the hammers were was called AR plate and it was supposed to be the same as armor plating, I recall when we had to do some welding on it they said it was a high manganese steel. I doubt this helps much but it is what I remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Can you drill it easily ? Here in Europe it would probably be some Z120Mn12 (ASTM A128 I think) a steel containing 1.2% carbon and 12% manganese, A steel that work hardens when you look at it... Even when drilling it it will work harden so you need to push hard enough on the drill bit to allow it to cut under the layer it hardens, insane feed rate... It is also used in prison bars as you try to saw it it hardens and the saw won't bite anymore... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 For what it is worth, being willing to spenf on tools and not on dies is a contradiction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 @ John Larson, if you read my previous post i stated i wouldn't mind spending the $425 on dies, i just wasn't that impressed with the anyang dies. For the price i want quality dies that line up nicely, i have a set of combo dies that don't line up, are off by 1/4. I know this can be solved by rotating the work being forged, i just feel like for $425 i can do better buying some s-7 and having it machined. The dovetails i cut with the bandsaw work ok, but for what i paid for the hammer i would like a perfect fit, like John N said, it would be a shame to "knacker" up the dovetails. So at this point i will find a machinist to cut the dovetails. @John N, aren't "knackers" gypsies over there? By the way, this armor plate is tough stuff! I hardened a 1/2" by 1/2 by 4 inch piece in oil. I put it in my vice and smacked it 10 times before it finally broke, it didn't yield much at all, virtually no bending. Thanks to all who responded. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I think the work 'Knacker', as in to destroy, has been around for a long time. Ive never heard of gypsies called knackers, but the place you send old / unwanted / injured horses has allways been the 'knackers yard' in the UK! If you are making your own dies for anyang, you can get a much more usefull shaped die by making it deeper, and narrower. Draw a circle the same diameter as the end of the ram, and see what 'rectangle' will fit in there! I have made 'deep dies' and they are much nicer to use! (preference thing?) You can even make slightly 'octaconal' top die to get more depth by knocking the corners off (so it does not foul when the ram retracts into the cylinder) You can also make your bottom die much longer than the top die (left to right, as it were!) so you can forge 'step downs'. All the Massey hammers were supplied with a wider bottom die than top for this purpose ! Nice to use, and costs no more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 By the way, this armor plate is tough stuff! I hardened a 1/2" by 1/2 by 4 inch piece in oil. I put it in my vice and smacked it 10 times before it finally broke, it didn't yield much at all, virtually no bending. If that is the case I would be more concerned to find out how to normalise/anneal it rather than harden it. I make a lot of my hammer and press tools out of mild steel just so there is no risk of bits flying off. I would rather dress/rebuild them occasionally than risk a chip in the face. Obviously it depends what you are forging but for mild steel or non ferrous and occasional 316 stainless my MS tools stand up fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share Posted September 22, 2012 @John N, I dated a girl raised in Ireland, she always used knacker as a derogatory word about people she didn't like! As for the dies, i think i will make some longer dies for the bottom, and a deeper die for the top. I'm not going to use the mystery steel, i think i'll order a stick of S-7, i got a quote a while back from a tool steel company for enough steel to make five sets of dies for the price of one set of Anyangs. @Blackersmith, I set my paragon oven on an anneal cycle to see how soft the armor steel will be. Ramp up to 1600f then cool 50f an hour to 1200 then shut off and cool on its own. I put a die size block in there that i plan to use for texturing. I get quite a few local metal fabricators asking me to do texture work for them. Till now i have been using a texturing block on a spring swage that goes into the tool saddle, it was made from 4140, as forged. I want a dedicated texturing die since everyone seems to ask for a similar texture, and having a die in the tup is much quieter than banging the texturing block. Like John N stated, i need to make sure the dovetails are right, as i don't want to "knacker" up the hammer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Terry Clark made some texturing tools by running a few beads of weld across a die, I cannot remember whether that was hard facing rod or not, saved him a lot of chiseling! Coincidently enough I used "knackered" as a description of my being physically exhausted earlier today in another thread. Must be the word of the day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 I used to work at a place that had a pulverizer for engine blocks etc. The plate lining the inside where the hammers were was called AR plate and it was supposed to be the same as armor plating, I recall when we had to do some welding on it they said it was a high manganese steel. I doubt this helps much but it is what I remember. Ar. Stands for abrasion resistant Its tough stuff it also has a positive and negative effect When you cut it with the torch (and you will) It gets a wicked hard edge almost like a blade Works great for snowplow blades Its also expensive as hell Those they make all sorts of grades tanks and ships are going to have secret alloys undoubtedly. Trying to prevent those IHIT slugs from getting through isn't easy they keep getting more advanced Edgar Brant the blacksmith invented the technology according to Wikipedia. The Anyang dies are just too soft they can be hard faced though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 One of the things that are a down side of the Anyang it that the dies are too small, and the bottom die is the same length as the top die (as made from the factory), I have always felt that 1st thing I would do should I ever buy an anyang would be to make a larger set of dies, (but I wont buy an anyang while I can still get masseys fairly easily in Australia). Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 Right you are Phil. The Anyang dies are small, I'd like to make a new longer flat die, the bottom dovetail has a few inches on each side for a large die. The upper cant get much bigger length wise, but a new top die that was thicker would be nice. I'm gonna find a local machinist and see if we can work something out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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