Farmall Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Just got a really nice 5-inch jaw post vise. Only issue is the crack on the mount as shown. I realize that three bolts ought to be good enough, but someone felt that 4 were needed, so I figure I should set things right.....and that's where the question is. Since it is probably all rusty inside that crack, how should I clean it out prior to trying to reattach? Should I heat it up, bend it further away, let it cool, and clean it or is there a better way? I figure someone in this group has made a similar repair and could help. Thanks for any and all responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matto Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 best way to clean it out is a grinder. you can use a cut off wheel to clean it out. it will give you a smaller hole to fill than using a grinding disc. then pre heat and weld try to let it cool as slow a you can. or you could braize it back together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I would say heat it up good and hot because it is wrought iron and it needs to be worked hot it up bend it open clean out any crud. Then bend it back flux it, take it up to forge welding temp and forge weld it. Its actually less work and quicker than modern welding methods for this specific task and you well preserve the integrity of the vise. That mount is wrought iron and should forge weld easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmall Posted June 12, 2012 Author Share Posted June 12, 2012 Matto, thank you for that response. Mr. Miller, that's kind of what I was thinking - heat it, bend it, clean it, heat it up good, flux and forge weld. Wasn't sure if there were any better ideas out there. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Not a better idea, but if you're not so hot at forge welding, you could vee it out and oxy-acetylene weld it. I use baling wire for filler rod with wrought iron. Wrought iron does not like arc welding; the arc tends to blow the metal around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmall Posted June 12, 2012 Author Share Posted June 12, 2012 Thanks, Mr. Turley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Also if you are worried about it falling apart wile setting up the forge weld you could drill it and put a small pin in it just to help hold it all together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Yup; looks likely to come apart on you when you open it up. riveting two parts before welding is mentioned in 100+ year old smithing books and I generally do it for welds when I'm working alone and don't have a third hand to hold stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southernforge Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Since we don't know what state or country you live in, makes it difficult to provide advice. You could take it to your local blacksmith meetings and get help in forge welding it, depending on your location. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmall Posted June 12, 2012 Author Share Posted June 12, 2012 Well, I am in Virginia. Haven't had a chance to take it to the local meeting, as I just got it and the meeting is in July, but if I don't have it fixed yet, I shall certainly ask them. I have never been afraid of asking for help, and then keeping my mouth shut to learn from others..... I do appreciate all the responses. As to the insertion of a rivet, would it be a long rivet through the crack to hold everything together if it breaks? If I do that, wouldn't it get in the way of separating the gap and cleaning it out? Maybe I'm not understanding.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Clean it out first then rivet it it may fall apart when you bend it open. Also forge brazing is a good option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I'd heat it and bend it open, if it breaks, just stick it with a tiny mig tack ( or other modern weld) to keep it in place then forge weld it closed... riveting something like that is more of a hassle than the mig welder would be. Though, with the Iron Mountain flux, you can slap that together drop tong with no problem. The lower tacking point that stuff has gives you alot of extra time to line stuff up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 here is my recomendation : Super Missileweld Rod Description: Steel Welding Electrode The ultimate electrode for welding steels with highest strength and maximum ductility (AC/DC) Assures non-cracking welds on “problem” steels such as high carbon steels; tool steels; stainless steels; spring steels; manganese steels; and dissimilar steels. Super Missileweld is particularly advantageous when the alloy content of the steel to be welded is known. This unique electrode is so versatile that its applications are virtually too multiple in number to specify. For years, it has been a maintenance and repair “stand-by” in every industry throughout the world. http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Products/Alloys/Welding/Maintenance-and-Repair/Super-Missileweld.aspx it Will Not Brake ! Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 here is my recomendation : Super Missileweld Rod Description: Steel Welding Electrode The ultimate electrode for welding steels with highest strength and maximum ductility (AC/DC) Assures non-cracking welds on “problem” steels such as high carbon steels; tool steels; stainless steels; spring steels; manganese steels; and dissimilar steels. Super Missileweld is particularly advantageous when the alloy content of the steel to be welded is known. This unique electrode is so versatile that its applications are virtually too multiple in number to specify. For years, it has been a maintenance and repair “stand-by” in every industry throughout the world.http://www.harrispro...issileweld.aspx it Will Not Brake ! SamBut if it is poor quality wrought iron it may fail right next to the weld, forge welding will take care of this problem. Wrought iron especially low quality stuff is its own animal. Working it is not the same as modern materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Note that Super Missileweld Rod will definitely have a noticeable colour difference than the wrought iron if you are trying to keep the piece "original". And, yes, you take it apart clean everything and then rivet to hold in place while heating and welding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Yes Tim If one Can forge it back together it is Best. However, if not ( as in he can not or dont think he can ) & orginality is not a concern , the SMWR it will fix it . Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 SMWR will fix most *anything*! As stated it's the go to rod when you don't know what you are trying to weld together but suspect the alloys may not want to play nice. (I'd love to trip over 50 pounds of it being sold for a pittance at the flea market....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Yes Tim If one Can forge it back together it is Best. However, if not ( as in he can not or dont think he can ) & orginality is not a concern , the SMWR it will fix it . SamYou missed my point. I have done a lot of work (100's of hours) with scrap wrought iron of varying quality. The good quality stuff welds well oxy/ace seems to work best. But what he has there looks more like the low quality stuff. You should forget what you know about metal when it comes to that. Modern welding is not really suited to it. Wrought iron is fibrous in nature like wood sometimes there are cracks and shuts in the metal you can electrically weld the crack shut but there may be weak fibers right next to it that will be further damaged by the weld. So you could weld with the strongest welding rod know to man and it will only be as strong as the metal adjacent to the weld. Wrought iron is just about the easiest stuff to weld there is and the low quality stuff welds better than the good stuff. Not to mention a smith should learn and practice smiting skills not avoid them. As far as forge welds go this is an easy one. Forge welding is not that hard people just build it up to be something complex and mysterious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I have to agree with Tim, this is a blacksmithing forum and wrought iron is the classic blacksmith material. It should be fixed with forge welding (or gas weld) and if that is to much trouble then you should give up smithing. Especially with the new flux from iron mountain. smith out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 It is I Forge Iron and Welding is part of the site . I offered a Known Technique for the Old Scrap Wrought Iron that was broken and a way to fix it . Yes it is not a Blacksmith's way However it will work! " what he has looks more like the low quality stuff" or better yet 1940 to 1950's metal Yes I know Also known as Military scrap made from the foundries when the Army and other Services finished using what they wanted from the good steel, to make Tools, Tanks and Equipment . it was melted down and used to make, cast , and forge Civilian items that is why I recomended the SMWR it can be used both by electric arc and by removing the flux and using the rod as a filler rod & (Unknown steel) by Oxy & Act Welding making a welded bond that renders the item usuable . Other wise He could Simply forge a new bracket for his leg vise or weld a new one in much less time . and Smith work and welding go Hand in Hand! Welding & Forging = the fusion of two like or dissimilar metals! Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmall Posted June 13, 2012 Author Share Posted June 13, 2012 Again, I appreciate all the posts and the suggestions.....I take no offense with any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 It is I Forge Iron and Welding is part of the site . I offered a Known Technique for the Old Scrap Wrought Iron that was broken and a way to fix it . Yes it is not a Blacksmith's way However it will work! " what he has looks more like the low quality stuff" or better yet 1940 to 1950's metal Yes I know Also known as Military scrap made from the foundries when the Army and other Services finished using what they wanted from the good steel, to make Tools, Tanks and Equipment . it was melted down and used to make, cast , and forge Civilian items that is why I recomended the SMWR it can be used both by electric arc and by removing the flux and using the rod as a filler rod & (Unknown steel) by Oxy & Act Welding making a welded bond that renders the item usuable . Other wise He could Simply forge a new bracket for his leg vise or weld a new one in much less time . and Smith work and welding go Hand in Hand! Welding & Forging = the fusion of two like or dissimilar metals! SamTry more like 1850 on the age of the vise bracket. Its not cast its forged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOblacksmith0530 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I would heat it, open it and try a forge weld. It that did not take for some reason then tack it or rivet it and then try the weld again. I have some utility rod I got a few years ago that sounds like the sm rod. And have used it to tack all kinds of things together and even used it to put a base layer down on a wrought anvil body before a faceplate repair. It worked for what I needed. If all else fails find another small piece of Wrought and make a new endpiece with a nice scarf on it and then weld it onto the new material away from the broken area, An old wagon tire is probably about the same quality of wrought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunch Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Super Missileweld Rod Alternately, if you wanted to TIG it, I bet ER310 would work well. Lincoln recommends it for high-carbon steels because it is very ductile and tough. It is about 25% Cr and 20% Ni and was formerly commonly known as "25-20 stainless." Excerpt from Lincoln's "Metals and How to Weld Them":"With some of the highest carbon steels (over 1.0%), the minimum safe penetration to produce a sound weld may raise the carbon content of the deposited metal to a point too high to be sufficiently ductile to withstand contraction stresses. Under these conditions a ductile and tough weld may be obtained by welding with a 25% chromium and 20% nickel electrode. This electrode has shallow penetrating characteristics and the deposit is still ductile even after picking up some carbon from the base metal. This electrode (called 25-20 stainless and numbered E-310-15) deposits weld metal that remains in the ductile austenitic state. It is so highly alloyed that it does not transform into martensite or other hard structures even when it is very quickly cooled." Probably not the most orthodox method of re-welding a blacksmith's post vise, but just throwing it out there FWIW... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Alternately, if you wanted to TIG it, I bet ER310 would work well. Lincoln recommends it for high-carbon steels because it is very ductile and tough. It is about 25% Cr and 20% Ni and was formerly commonly known as "25-20 stainless." Excerpt from Lincoln's "Metals and How to Weld Them":"With some of the highest carbon steels (over 1.0%), the minimum safe penetration to produce a sound weld may raise the carbon content of the deposited metal to a point too high to be sufficiently ductile to withstand contraction stresses. Under these conditions a ductile and tough weld may be obtained by welding with a 25% chromium and 20% nickel electrode. This electrode has shallow penetrating characteristics and the deposit is still ductile even after picking up some carbon from the base metal. This electrode (called 25-20 stainless and numbered E-310-15) deposits weld metal that remains in the ductile austenitic state. It is so highly alloyed that it does not transform into martensite or other hard structures even when it is very quickly cooled." Probably not the most orthodox method of re-welding a blacksmith's post vise, but just throwing it out there FWIW... Wrought iron has almost no carbon. Problem with Tig welding wrought iron is porosity not low ductility. Wrought iron is very ductile and is not prone to becoming brittle from heating. I have seen wrought iron welded with stainless steel rod but the welds needed to be twice as long as what was required for steel. Its amazing how few people actually understand what wrought iron is and how it is different. Wrought iron is like wood it has a grain lower quality iron has a more coarse grain. Some wrought iron wont work well cold some wrought iron can only be worked at near welding heat. Wrought iron can have enclosed pockets of iron oxide scale and slag. It can have internal delaminations of the grain running through the bar that can not be seen. Forging at a welding heat actually improves the quality of the iron. A weld unless it is a full penetration weld will just cover the crack and only be as strong as the metal it is welded to. If there hidden cracks right next to the weld was basically useless. Forge welding would consolidate the damaged material and considerably strengthen the material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.