how to get a long heat on a bar for scrolling

[Rick Barter]

well, today was gas welding practice, but i'm planning on taking another shot at my scroll tomorrow or saturday. that being said, how do i take a nice long heat on a bar?

i'm using coal and i'm not getting much of a long heat. any advice?

rvb

[Leah]

Rick,

What I do is to start with part of the bar in the fire and let it heat a little then, I push or pull the bar a little at a time and let the heat run up the bar. I have a slot cut in the back of my forge table that I can open up to let long stock through. If you have drawn the end down thinner, you might want to save this part for last so you don't burn it. Just keep moving the bar back and forth till you get a nice even heat all the way up the bar. I hope this helps.

[Glenn]

How much iron (what length) can you work at one time before the metal looses heat? Hand hammer or power hammer?

[Daryl]

First, take a look at your fire. In a forced air (forge) fire, there are many different layers to the fire, each layer progressively getting hotter as you reach closer to the center of the 'ball'. The size of the ball and the ultimate temperature of the ball is dependent upon several factors: the size and shape of the firepot; the shape of the tuyre or air grate; the manner in which the coal has been placed upon the fire; and the height of the stacked coal, which directly influences the height of the ball from the tuyre.
If you look at many of the old (pre 1900) blacksmithing books, they stress over and over how important it is to have a good deep clean fire, with the highest heat being six inches above the tuyre. The fire should have a minimum of clinkers (don't fret over a couple little specs here and there), and the air blast should flow freely throughout the fire.
Unless you are welding a small portion, do not place the iron directly into the center of the ball. Instead, slide it in just of to the center, a slightly cooler, yet noticeably longer heat will be attained.
The firepot I use is 10 x14 at the top and 6 deep; I keep my coal no less than four inches above the table top level, and no more than eight inches for large long heats.
This is the way I was taught, then I tried my own way, now I just do it the way I was taught.

[T-Gold]

Personally, even when using a jig or fork I don't work more than 6" of a scroll at a time. I usually bend on the yellow heat and then true and clean up at lower heats (helps prevent hammer dings a bit too!). So I wouldn't see this as a major problem... YMMV.

[Rick Barter]

thanks everyone. I don't have a power hammer so I guess I'm getting plenty of heat. Leah, I will try your suggestion. I have to cut a slot in the back of my little forge so the bar can pass through. This has been a limiting factor.

rvb

[Mills]

As Leah said, that is what I do also. However I now find myself cold forming the large parts of a scroll, more often than not. Saves heat and time. You have to over bend a scoush (technical term for a smidge) and if not careful I'll put kinks in what I'm doing. I use either an anvil tool or a u made of suitable rd stock in the vice. Feed a little and bend a little. Of course I hot form the small parts, or make the flare or penny scroll start first.

[irnsrgn]

As was stated above, 6 inches is enough to start a scroll and get the detail you want. If you are working it around a scroll jig this gives you enough heat and time to do it right and get it formed around the jig good. A second heat will let you finish it and you can cool the first part to keep from damaging it when working the second part.


If you are doing a scroll free hand on the horn or in horns in the hardy hole 6 inches is almost to much to work and get it formed decently. all scrolls are works of art and even with a jig no two are exactly alike. Most small scrolls will use about a foot of material and if you are trying to work a foot of material all hot its going to move where you don't want it to, and your are going to sacrifice quantity for quality, scrolls take time to do right, and if you try to speed things up to the point of only a couple of minutes for each scroll they are not going to look worth a darn.

Remember you want to end up with something you are not ashamed to put you name on, and brag to someone that I did that.

Personally I take 4 or more heats to get something that is pleasing to my eye. take the time to do it right the first time. after you make quite a few they get easier.

To me taking a real long heat on a bar to make a scroll would be like trying to stuff a wet noodle up a pipe from the bottom, it will do anything but what you want it to.

[Rick Barter]

Great analogy, Irnsrgn! Thanks for the info. As for my scroll technique, I suck. But, I'm practicing and found something last night that shed light on what I was doing.

It was a development drawing of the beginning of a scroll from George Dixon's Book about Francis Whitaker. I have definitely not been patient enough and have been trying to do too much at once like you said. I'll slow down, do a little at a time and see how it goes.

When I get it so I'm no longer ashamed of it, I'll post some pics. It may be awhile. haha

rvb

[HWooldridge]

I make a lot of scrolls. I seldom use heat after the first 6 inches are done but use a pair of bending forks to take little bites and scroll the large part cold. As has been said, it's not like doing burglar bars on a Hossfeld. For example, a leg for one of my standard plant-pot holders has a fishtail scroll at the bottom and a split, double back scroll at top. A single piece starts at 18 inches long and ends at 12-3/4. I make these frequently and have it down to 4 heats on the bottom and 3 heats on the top - this is moving right along with no hesitation. Three of these legs go on one holder - that's 21 heats just for the supports but I work two or three bars at a time in the gas forge and not much time is spent waiting. At normal working speed, I can do six legs an hour when the forge is at temp, so about 1-1/2 minutes per heat.

[Glenn]

Makin Moore, production manager of "The Smithy", once told a fellow that worked in his shop, "We sell products, we don't sell heats. You take as many heats as you need."

Getting it right is more important than how many heats it took to get there.

[Ed Thomas]

When you bend iron, two factors affect how the bar wants to move. 1) The shape of the iron across the areas being bent 2) The temperature of the iron across the areas being bent.

To reduce the impact of temperature, it is common to try to heat it evenly. One way to look at cold bending is to think of it as the most uniform heat... just rather low.

Once you get past the most simple cross-sections and shapes, you will start looking at ways to use the heat to compensate for the shape anyway. So trying to get a uniform heat is good, but not essential for bending.

As long as the iron is in a malleable range, your bending tools and anvil techniques matter much more.

One caution I would make is to pay attention to what happens as you bend and shape the iron. The more you peck at it, the more harried and overworked it will begin to look. What you are aiming for is to forge it to the shape you want, and then bend it to the shape you want. All deliberately. That takes some practice, but is worth it.

In other words, pay very close attention while you are doing this and note what really happens. Try things. Don't just fool with it until it is pretty close to what you want and then be relieved. Try to figure out what happened, and immediately do it again and again so you know you can MAKE it behave, not just HOPE it will behave.

[HWooldridge]

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Glenn,

I agree that the final product appearance is important but so is the time it took to get there - especially in a small production shop such as mine. It may take me all day to get a prototype done but I often make jigs as I go - to assist in whatever repetitive work comes when it is produced en masse. However, when I'm done making jigs and creating a work instruction, making the piece should then go as fast as possible. I make over 40 items in production so I have to be able to go back to something six months later and make it properly and quickly without "reinventing the wheel".

Mr Moore may have said that quote, but he would have fired the smith who took twice the time that the next guy used to make the same thing. Number of heats is an indicator of skill - if Smith X can properly forge an item in 3 heats and Smith Y takes 6, then Y is doing something incorrectly - given the same result. Doesn't make any difference if they are using hand tools or a power hammer - proper tool manipulation is critical.

Time is money...Hollis

[Glenn]

The original question was "How do i take a nice long heat on a bar?" From there it moved to how much bar can you work before it gets cold and have to reheat.

I think we are referring to two different situations, one a new blacksmith trying to figure things out, and number two, a production run.

Making the first one of anything is a challenge and takes several tries, and sometimes many heats, to figuring things out. The second one takes less time now that you know how. Jigs cut the time again as you figure out what part of the process has to be done by hand and what part can be done with a jig. Now that you know the steps involved to make the item, you can make one more to be sure everything works together as one entire process as well as it did as individual steps. This is the point where the number of heats become important and decrease with your increased speed of work and using the same heat for several steps.

The point is that if you make an item one time, the first one can take many heats figuring out how to get things to work and get the piece to look right. Hollis I agree with you that the number of heats are important in production, as everything is figured out, the steps in line, and each heat or step costs production time and therefore money.



Makin Moore's comments are in the IForgeIron story section
The Smithy - Blacksmithing and Baseball

[T-Gold]

Also, how cold do you let it get? Coming from a glass shop, I work hot hot -- and when the piece turns orange or red, back into the forge without delay. On a good gasser I sometimes spend as much time in the forge as at the anvil, going back and forth rapidly, and keeping the piece at yellow or above. Just like good glass artists usually work very HOT... because it is much EASIER except in certain situations. :)

[Strine]

With scrolls I tend to do them without jigs. If I have to make a jig it means I have to make a lot of the same thing. I'm a one-off then move on bloke, so please no repetition work thanks.

So...I tend to heat only that part of the bar that I know I can get right first up, or maybe second up (third up!!! ...go and mow the lawn or something and try again later). Then I heat the next section and get that right. etc etc. I wouldn't try and work the whole length of the bar at once.

Mmmm. I've just realised I've rewritten what Irnsrgn said except for this.

Remember you want to end up with something you are not ashamed to put you name on, and brag to someone that I did that.

Adding to the quote. Put your name on it for sure, even your address but it doesn't need your shoe size, how you like your steaks done nor your mother's maiden name.

[anvillain]

I couldn't resist throwing in my two cents. All the answers above are right on, but IF one DID want to make a long heat, a long fire is a great asset. Fires (coal) can be made just about any size or shape you want,with the right planning and equipment. My forge, as I stand facing it, is wider than it is from front to rear. I also use notches on each end to accomodate long bars. after starting the fire I lay a trench of coke from a previous fire, then bank it on front and rear with wet coal, gradually giving it air it follows the coke faster than it will burn into the wet coal. To maintain it I sprinkle water on each side of the fire to help keep it from spreading. After several hours it will become unmannerly and spread out. I will pull back some of the excess and let it cool, then lay more fresh,wet coal on the sides of the trench and the coke I just pulled out will go over the center as needed. Another way is to lay firebrick to help keep it from spreading. In hot weather firebrick can also keep you from cooking your body :mrgreen:

anvillain

[Ed Thomas]

Rick Barter: I'm a bit out of commission right for a few days so I'm reduced to watching videos and reading about blacksmithing rather than doing any. I just got done watching a segment of Frank Turley discussing scrolls while he shaped one, which will become a jig for further scrolls.

I got this DVD at the last ABANA conference, I THINK it was at the UMBA booth. At any rate, you can go here:

http://www.umbaonline.org/

And click on "Library" about the middle of the page. The cost is only $7 for the first DVD and $5 for each one after that.

This is an awesome deal. Each DVD is between 5 and 6 hours of demos and covers a very large range of skills. It isn't quite as good as being there, but you can watch the segment over and over till you figure out what you want to know.

The DVD I found Frank Turley on wasRD-4.

He is the last of 5 tracks.

Back to the scrolls... Frank probably took 10 heats or more to make the scroll. Some of that was due to talking and demonstrating, but it didn't look like he could have cut more than a few heats from that anyway.