Randy Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 First some information: I didn't put this in the knife section as I'm not looking at making any more knives, but some larger sculptural pieces. So the piece will not be heat treated. A finished product/billet of about 2" square by say a foot long when completed. Just a layered billet not mosaic damascus. I don't have any problem forge welding and I do it in the coal and gas forges. It's okay if the finished layers are 1/8" thick or more. So this is for looks, not function. I have done some damascus/pattern welding over the years so know something about the process. Question: What materials would give me the best contrast? I should add that I don't plan to order the material from a knife dealer but will just go to my scrap pile or scrap dealer. So info in that regard will be most helpful. I did hit the other posts and they were knife related, didn't really say much about contrast or if it was more along the art lines didn't say what the materials were. Any help and details are greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Pure nickel and wrought iron works well. Note that *how* you etch it can make a big difference: Ferric Chloride may produce a much more muted etch than one of the nitric acid based compounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 Thanks! Wrought iron I have. What in the scrap yard will be pure nickel? And if that's not easy to work with, is it?, then what is the next best material? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 . Hi Randy You could try looking for old circular saw blades. Many of the better quality ones are made from L6 which has a lot of nickel in it! Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Wood resaws have a nice sized bandsaw blade or LARGE blades from a saw designed to cut tree trunks into lumber. Nice thickness and good Ni content usually. You do have access to a powerhammer right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 Thanks! I have a Nazel 1B and a 60 ton forging press. Does it make any difference welding in the gas compared to the coal forge for Ni? I have a blown Jymm Hoffman style gas forge so heat is not a problem either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I have been thinking of something similar. A layered billet of stainless/mild/stainless/mild... to make outdoor sculptures that the stainless layers would stay shiny. I have done no research on weldability of that combination or if the rusting mild will migrate to the stainless. I think it would be possible to etch the stainless to remove the iron contamination but would being in close contact make that futile? I am watching your thread with interest, thank you for starting it. r smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 If you do use circular saw blades make sure they are not the ones that have the teeth bonded on..those blades are not the material Doc mentioned above. It likely will not have the nickel in it. Stainless billets are a whole nother ball game. you may want to read up some before you attempt that as the flux needed for the welding also has a desire to eat lung tissue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweany Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 band saw blade and pallet strap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimenickel Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 depends... are you lookin for bold pattern ... or inbetween.. just welding mild iron to wrought iron shows up nicely... or wrought iron to a high P wrought iron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 He did ask about the materials that would give a bold pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Budd Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 something with nickle in for the bright, then something with maganese or chromium (i think) for dark. The more of each then the more distinct that colour will be. So bandsaw blades (etch one to see if it is a nickle alloy, some are not and will be plain carbon steel, so dark etch) for the bright and springs for the dark (many spring steels have mananese in good amounts). Otherwise colour and texture contrast. Such as wrought iron (pale with streaks) and springs (solid and pretty dark). Even mild and wrought will give the texture difference (ie solid and streaky, especially if its crappy wrought), this can be enhanced by dipping in sulphuric acid to eat away at the wrought more. Or bandsaw blades and mild for shiny and matt. You could make a billet of various scrappy things and etch it to see what comes up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 modern steam boiler plate has a fair bit of nickel in it.(in the Uk anyway) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Maybe I'll try the wrought iron and mild steel. If you know of a better scrap material to work with that I can get in thick pieces please let me know. Hope it gives me a great contrast. What's the best etch to achieve this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimenickel Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 just ferric chloride works well here is an example where i used wrought iron with mild iron http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=17653&view=&hl=seax&fromsearch=1 its good to work up a sample just so you know the etch characteristics of the wrought... as wrought is highly variable, and can have welding flaws already born into the metal, and even vary alot in terms of alloy...... mild also moves at a similar rate to wrought at high temp as was stated... manganese does help to etch dark... eg) O2 good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I ran across an artical that used Ferric chloride, water, and citric acid. it worker real well and use ammonia to stop the acid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Paul Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Randy, I'm not sure how "bold" you are lookin for, but this would be inexpensive if it's good enough. I hammered out some 5160 and mild steel today, while playing around. Leaf springs don't cost much, and nether does mild steel. I etched it twice in hydrachloric acid for about 20 min each time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 Thanks everyone! I'm still open to other ideas. Really like to get as close to black and white as I can or brown and white. I'm currently bundling up some mild steel with some highly refined wrought iron and also some not refined wrought iron. I'll keep it simple so I can see which is which and then etch to see how it works. I'll photo it as I go. What's the best etch to use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Budd Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 ferric chloride gives a good depth of colour. I've also seen some artistic pieces that were very heavily etched (full on topographic etch) and then gun blued, the high spots were then rubbed over to highlight them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Randy, The blackest black is O2 tool steel as Greg has stated and the Whitest white is Nickel 200 as Thomas says which is about 99% pure nickel. HOWEVER you get the best contrasts from highly polished surfaces. You can get some good effects with stainless steel welded to carbon steel and wrought as well...though the welding techniques and forging temperatures (as well as how far you can twist and do other manipulations) are not your typical forge welding and will take time to master. If you are not going to polish the surfaces then I suggest texture from "over etching" wrought welded to a high carbon steel with another steel (1018) thrown in here and there. Have a look at some of Rick Smith's work from 15 years ago..his vessels. They are examples of this. Etching: You can lay out a shallow pan and line it with a thick garbage bag and etch with muratic..it will gove a deep etch in a few hours...check frequently to monitor...rinse with water and neutralize with ammonia. Oil quickly. I think pattern-welded material is underutilized in sculpture. I have a few ideas drawn up, but no time to do them. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 Thanks, Rick. Where do I find Rick Smith's vessels? Did a google and a search here with no luck. I highly agree with you about the pattern welding and sculpture. The first Dona Meilach books, Decorative and Sculptural Ironwork, had some beautiful pattern welded pieces. I met one guy years ago at a show that did it with 1/2" thick or more finished layers for sculptural pieces. Incredible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Randy, I can make you plates that are as large as 1/2 x 5 x 30" if you wish. I can go bigger, but there are limitations for now. http://www.doorcountyforgeworks.com/Damascus_steel.html Rick's vessels: They were shown in the Anvil's ring a while back. Basically he welded up bits (the size of masonry nails) and some mosaic bars and joined them to plates and built larger vessels from those....I rather liked them as they showed a general carelessness and disregard for a material that so many knifemaker's hold dear. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 Thanks, Rick, but the whole purpose of this is for me to be able to make better pattern welded steel for my use. I have made it before, see cowboy hat, just want better contrast and bigger blocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Ric I save the tag ends of bars to make wedges for hammer handles for very much the same reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Randy, I suggest you look into mass finishing of those hats....a vibratory unit may be best to get into all the undercuts. There are many companies that offer the service. It will leave a better surface for etching. The better the finish the better the etch. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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