alxrbk Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Right, so yesterday I posted some pictures of my backyard anvil in this thread, hoping to get it identified or at least assessed. I was really pleased to find out that I could still put it to some use, so today I had a go! Acting on advice from Old N Rusty and Phoenixwolfhaven, I set out to fire up my makeshift forge and see what I could do. After scrounging about for some coal and old newspaper, I set about trying to light the thing, and that's where I ran into my first set of problems. In retrospect, I went against everything I've read, seen and been told because i was just so eager to begin. I got stuck in about 4 loops of: Stack up kindling > Light Kindling > Wait for flames to get big > Turn on compressor and blow fire out > Stack up kindling etc. So not off to a great start. When I finally managed to retain some burning material, I dumped a ton of coal on top, smothered the fire and had to begin again (after 10 years in the scouts I really should know better by now!). Anyway, by the time I had my compressor running with a respectable blaze it was already getting dark, but I thought I might as well continue, plus it gave me a chance to see the hot colours of the mild steel out of direct sunlight and get a feel for the whole process. It took me a while to find the right spot for the tip of the poker I was using to get started (Incidentally, the poker I was using was the first and only thing my dad forged, which had since been cut in half, so I rather liked the fact that I was learning with it!), but once I'd found the 'hotspot' or what-have-you, I was too excited to keep the thing in, and kept removing it over and over to check the colour. I watched the tip change from charred black, to dull red, to bright, cherry red, to yellow, to bright yellow, but couldn't seem to get it to spark. I blame my poor forge building skills, and the fact that I'm still getting to grips with the nature of the burning coal (my only fuel at this point), but once I'd got it to that bright yellow I decided to attempt to finish the exercise Old N Rusty had suggested; I quenched it, slapped it onto the anvil, cracked the tip off and had a look at the broken tip. I could just about make out the shear-point in the dim light, I was pretty amazed at the change in the characteristics of the metal; I'd hammered and bent the tip of the poker earlier, and the fact that the same force now would snap the end off... I did that! Well after that I decided to have a go at some simple techniques I'd read about. I practiced drawing down (correct terminology check?) and made the end of the poker into a chisel-like point. I then took another poker and tried upsetting it. I think that the second poker was made of a higher carbon steel, because this was tough! I finally got it to bulge a little at the end and then decided to call it a night, because by this point I had what I'd call 'jelly-wrist' - I had no problem lifting the hammer, but actually hitting something turned my wrist into limp spaghetti; I guess that's what i get for being idle these last few years, 'noodlification'. I wonder, is this normal? I had my anvil set up at knuckle height and I was using a ball-peen of about 1.5lbs, I was expecting to sweat and experience more tiredness in my shoulder and forearm; is the limp wrist indicative of poor technique? Anyway, I had a great time today, a lot of fun. The only real issue was me leaving the back door open whilst starting my fire, so now the whole house stinks of smoke this is what I've learned: 1) set up earlier. I started setting everything up at about 1pm today, and I wasn't done until about 6. Building my forge (more on that later) and starting my fire took longer than expected though, so I'll probably save time tomorrow. 2) Build a better forge! I'm a little ashamed at this, but in the name of full documentation I'm going to tell you about it. I had some bricks with twin grooves along them, which I used to build my forge. I set it up with all of the bricks in such a way as to only have one groove leading into the central 'pit'. I ran some copper pipe along this groove and attatched my compressor to the other end, creating a pseudo 'side blast' style thing. Given the fact that I couldn't get any metal past a bright yellow, I think that either my compressor isn't up to the task, or the gaps in the brickwork allowed too much air through. Either way, I need it hotter! I'll scout around for other suitable materials tomorrow and see about rebuilding the thing. 3) Close the door. i don't know if it's because I wasn't getting complete combustion or because i was using coal, but this thing smoked like mad for the first two hours or so of use. It had stopped smoking so profusely by the time I was done, but still, tons and tons of smoke. Is that usual? Do you guys finish work smelling like a fireman? I don't mind so much, but the forge fires I see in videos always look so clean by comparison to mine! and on that note, I have some questions: -my anvil has been referred to as having a 'sway back'; I found that anything I hammered tended to bend to conform to the anvil below it (well, yeah), but is it simply a matter of finding a nice smooth spot that's not as angled as the rest of the face? (See the previously linked thread for pictures) -Am I making any glaringly obvious mistakes? Am I doing anything wrong? How can I improve? If there's anything about this post that makes you go 'Oh, good god, no, NO! That's so very wrong! This guy suuucks!'? - reply and tell me what it is and how I can change it. If i need to go back to the drawing board, learn some more, meet some people who know what they're doing, I'll clean up my mess and swear off forging until I consider myself 'ready' again. Anyway, I've rambled on long enough. At the end of the day, I had a ton of fun today, really enjoyed myself. I look forward to reading any replies. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 hey alex - your from leeds! yey hi there from an english lass - you sound very enthused by your whole process, your talking my language - just keep doing what youre doing i reckon, and look up alot of stuff on here - its all in here somewhere - the answers to life etc - im very pleased for you to have directed some energy somewhere decent bravo, what kind of stuff do you want to be making? i will watch this ( your) space for further signs of activity. im in glos, so miles away from you, but if i can help at all, then Say the Word :0 best of luck in your endeavours :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxrbk Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hi Beth! Yup, Leeds is where I'm from but I spend most of my time at uni in Hull, no idea what I'm going to do once I'm there, doubt I can convince anyone to give my anvil a lift when I go back! (What am I saying, I could barely lift it onto the log I was using as a stand!) Well, my brother does a lot of living history stuff, so I'd like to be of some use to him. I guess I'd like to start with simple things; pokers, cooking pot hooks (S hooks I think is the correct term), simple blades for stripping and shaping wood, etc. Right now I think my focus should be on forging my first set of tools; hot and cold chisels, tongs, punches and the like, they seem to provide immediate usefulness whilst improving basic skills at the same time. Eventually? I imagine everyone says 'swords' when they begin. Having seen the time and effort that goes into making a simple sword I've decided that I won't even consider them for now - what would I do with a sword!? -but i can't claim that I'm completely disinterested! I'd love to make some nails, maybe some agricultural tools for the fun of it. I've always wanted to have a go at smithing, I like the fact that you can make almost anything you can imagine with enough time and experience. I guess I'll see where it takes me Do you have any suggestions? How did you start? What do you enjoy making the most? *edit* believe it or not, you can use that "sway" to actually straighten a piece of steel, by incrementally hammering out a bend, and correcting until the piece is straight. I imagine it's something I'll get used to over time as I become more familiar with the techniques involved and the anvil I'm using. Thanks for the clarification though, I think I allowed my preconception over the 'sway' to influence my view of it. I'll play around with bending and straightening tomorrow, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hi Alxr and welcome to the site, compressors for air supply are always a problem. The coal you used should be OK but it will need to be managed to get the best out of it, and to stop it smoking after the initial start up. Just feed in new fuel from the edges of the fire, and you will probably need water to damp it down and control the heat. The coke you can get is difficult to light until you get the hang of it, and it will quickly go out if you don't have a constant air blast through it. Try a bit more forging practice before trying to forge and heat treat your edge tools, and I would also suggest a slightly heavier (2lb) hammer, pace yourself, and if you are starting to tire, cease and take a rest before starting again. Get to know the terminology and tools which will be useful for you, on the Tools section there is a Blacksmiths Tools Explained section which will help. Good luck with, and enjoy your new journey into blacksmithing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 hi alex - all that sounds great - historical items are fun to look at and try to make - and they can actually be Used which is what brings this stuff alive i reckon i would agree to try and get those tools made too, you will find an almost endless need for new cool stuff, most of which you can make... i like making decorative things really, although im interested in it all, but in my dreams i would make storylike decorative items for people to use in their live, that would influence their moods and their passage through the day - im an artist really rather than a tool making type or a blade maker - although i defy anyone not to be fascinated with swords and such WOW!! its the more organic looking work that i like, but like i said any of this stuff is ultimately very groovy and interesting - there is such a wide variety of work made - the talent and knowledge on this forum is massive. do you have a useable workspace? nice to meet you :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 No stopping you now ,man! It will get to be so easy that you will begin to have real fun forging. Good luck! Don't fear asking questions, we ALL had to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Most of us still are ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewed Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 More air and you should be able to melt that steel if you are using coal. I haven't check out your forge thread yet, but your copper pipe and compressor may be to blame. You need volume more than pressure when it comes to air - if that makes any sense. Your hammer may also be a bit light. As for jelly wrist, you are swinging the hammer wrong. Swing more from the shoulder/ elbow and less from the wrist. You should be moving your whole arm. I tend to get jelly fore-arm, but I hold the hammer wrong as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 well said guys - this is the spirit of the bsmithing community - it is so valuable heres to a good creative and productive year for us all - keep us posted alex, like rusty said it will very soon come together and you will be grinning like a cheshire cat:) i ask questions all the time, really basic ones mostly, but thats the only way to find out what you need to know eh?here are some things i made recently if youd like to see, theres not a huge amount of BLACKSMITHING as such in them, but there is bits. the pliers i made on one of john b's courses (first pair i have finished EVER due to HUGE confusion about left and right on tongs, which i have now put to rest!!! thankgod...) that he runs in dorset - they are a way off from where you live but well worth it if you can come down, there is a link on the site here for all the info, uk blacksmiths guild. its cool isnt it john? i also like lots of other art pursuits, mainly sculpture/drawing so my work has a different slant to a lot of people on here who are much more talented and involved 'smiths" there is room for everyone though, and i like to think that we all benefit from a good mix alex - if you want to post pictures, it goes all weird, so make them really small before you upload them and then it will work :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 ps - as for the limp wrist - its just a state of mind - one im positive is beneficial in other arenas of life - just alter your mental stance when holding the hammer !! but drewed is quite right, all the best work comes from the shoulder :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Hi Alex, Welcome to the group, Do not worry about making mistakes, we all do - the secret is to learn from them. Reenactment is how I got into smithing nearly 20 years ago, if you can get down near coventry over the 16,17,18th march then you could have a look around TORM your brother will probably know about this. There are several of us who go to this event selling forged items. The only problem you may find making reenactment/historical items is that the research can get as adictive ( and exspensive?) as the forging side. Wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Just a thought Alex try ebay or local car boots and keep an eye out for the yellow bouncy castle blowers you can often find them for £20 and under fit an air grate and you are in business Wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 take a few pictures of your set up maybe we can see a few things that might help. Just keep at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxrbk Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Thanks to everyone for the replies, I'll answer your questions/address your comments in order of posting: John B - I've found a heavier ball-peen in the workshop, I'll be using this in future. I've also managed to get hold of a hoover/vacuum cleaner which I'm going to attempt to either reverse the fan (so it blows from the nozzle) or attatch my tubing to the exhaust (not so sure about that option because of the backpressure on the system... I don't know if it will damage the machine or not), but I've also got an old hairdryer that I might repurpose if the hoover doesn't work out. I think I could probably find some better piping around here somewhere too. Beth - At present my workspace is just off to one side of the patio outside. I would have been out there today but for the torrential rain and high winds. I'd like to move the whole thing inside, but after yesterday's 'smokesplosion' I'm a bit reluctant to do so. I'm also a bit wary of fumes; I know not to forge anything galvanised, for example, but until I'm more experienced there's always a chance I could make a mistake. For those reason, I think I'd like to stay outside for now. I like your style, especially the repurposing of tools! The gate(gate?) in the first picture is fantastic, I especially like the contrast between the fork and the surrounding metalwork, and the 'organicness' of the whole thing. It might sound like an oxymoron when referring to something crafted, but in my opinion it kind of bridges the gap between nature and craft. I'd like to think that the fork has been well-used as well, maybe having a few decades of use in it before being repurposed - gives it some history! I've got a bunch of old agricultural stuff up here; hoes, scythes (including a massive two-hander), forks, bills, etc. All a bit rusty but I'll take a picture of them all and post it sometime this week, if you or anyone in the uk is interested in trading the heads for mild steel rods/bits and pieces for me to work with then I'm happy to do a straight trade for whatever you think they're worth. My original source of metal was going to be the scaffolding we've got outside, but after Dan P's comment that the tubes are probably galvanised I'd rather not risk it! Drewed - it's more an anvil thread, I've steered somewhat clear of forge talk because I'm aware that mine's pretty poor at present. I'll make some modifications, see if I can get mild steel up to melting temperature with a hairdryer/hoover and report back on the experience. I understand what you mean though. While a compressor is decent for pumping up tyres to ~33psi, it does it slowly. A hoover or hairdryer couldn't work to that kind of pressure, but you get a lot more volume in a lot less time - am I right? I'll make an effort to swing from my shoulder and elbow, I was definitely swinging from the wrist yesterday! Wayne - My brother has been trying to get me to come to TORM for the last couple of years, so I'll do my best to get down there. Apparently there's a guy who does really nice jerky/biltong/dried meat, so combine that with the opportunity to learn more about smithing and I'm sold! If my efforts with the hoover and dryer are fruitless, I'll have a look for bouncy castle blowers and the like, I tend to frequent freegle and gumtree when I'm looking for stuff, but I'll keep an eye out for stuff on ebay and any local events too. Have you guys heard of freegle/freecycle by the way? They're yahoo groups and there's usually one for each town/county in the UK; people put up stuff that they're trying to get rid of for free. I've been given a 28inch tv, an old PC, a record player and some other miscellanious stuff over the years. All they usually ask is that you put your stuff up when you're trying to get rid of it too, I imagine it would be a good source for metal and useful items (and plan on using it as such!) Francis Trez Cole - It's already dark today, but if the weather's good tomorrow I'll take a picture once I've played around with my new piping/air supplies. Hooo, that was a tiring type-off, but hopefully I've given a decent response. I like to be thorough with this kind of thing, my reputation as a literature student demands it! (hopefully that thoroughness will transfer to my smithing!) Anyway, thanks again for your input everyone, I wouldn't have had the motivation to try were it not for your feedback and comments. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Alex, Some of the larger B&Q centers stock mild steel bar in flat and round but you are paying through the nose for it. When I lived up near Gainsborough I used to go to Kass steel stockholders at Scunthorpe, Now I am south of Lincoln I go to newark steel, I just ring them tell them what I want and either have delivered - for a price or pop over and collect. £2 or £3 or so for a 20 odd foot length of 6mm dia rod adds up to a lot of nails or hooks. If you look these two up on the internet in the business section you will probably find a similar business near you. As for a work shop I started out with a hand cranked riveters forge under a blue plastic tarpauline for several years. Wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leighwill Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 alreet pal welcome to IFI from a fellow yorkshireman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divermike Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 sounds like you are right on track, if you are like me, you need to make the mistake to remember not to ever do it again, one thing I learned, is never put your heated piece in the water unless you really need to cool it. Funny thing, it makes it really brittle and can ruin your whole day. I blew up about an hours worth of forging on a hold down that I dropped in the quench tank, I had just come back from david robertsons studio in canada, and he always dropped his pieces on the ground to cool, so my extremely brittle spring steel hold down literally exploded when I tried to seat it on a work piece, I was lucky I was not hit by shrapnel, may you never make that one mistake now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Hi Alex, Don't know what type of Hoover you have, but if it is an upright, with a bag on the dsdie, just remove the bag and use the input to the bag as your delivery source, disconnect the roller/beater bar belt drive and place the hoover base on its side so as to get maximum airflow into the fan, It may pay to put some form of mesh guard over the opening to stop debris plastic bags etc getting sucked in, an old chip pan mesh inside would probably do. If you have a cylinder vacuum cleaner, then one end sucks, the other blows. Dyson types need too much messing to bother with, and reversing motors is not really practical. Hair dryer will do too, disconnect the element if there is no cold setting. Bathroom extractor fans and oil fired/gas boiler fans can also be used. All are substitutes for a proper blower and may last many years. One thing that is essential is an air control of some sort, slide valves are my preferred, some electric motors can be controlled with dimmer switches, but go for the 1000 watt rating not the lower wattage ones. Be warned, some Hoovers are over 1000 watt so they would not be sutable to use a dimmer switch on. I would suggest going with a botttom blast design for your forge as they take up less room and if you are going to be running forge welding heats they will last longer than a side blast without a water tank. If you PM me with your email address, I can email a file back to you with details for a bottom blast forge. The 2lb hammer should make a big difference for you, if you have some old garden forks, they are ideal material for punches and tongs Other bits can be used for projects. If you want materials go round your local industrial estates and see if there are any small fabrication or machine shops that will let you have some of there cut off pieces. If you can make it down to Westpoint (near Exeter in Devon, not Dorset) we would be pleased to see you. Good luck with your progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxrbk Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 Hey guys, tried my hand once again today. I had to stop because of the rain, but I think overall I've been more productive and learned from it. Once again, I'll reply individually, by order of posting. Wayne - I've found a steel stockholders near me, in Selby, so once I've got my loan in (student :/ ) I'll give them a ring and see what I can find. leighwill - Thanks for the welcome! My mum's from Middlesbrough, whenever we're up we always get a kebab from this place, used to be called pizza junction (not so sure now), anyway, it's more teeside but still, some fantastic architecture up there, lovely houses. divermike - I got my forge up to heat today (more on that later), and quenched some mild steel from yellow n sparky kind of temperature; the end snapped right off when I hit it cold, a fair bit of shrapnel too. Your warning is duly noted. John B - We've got an old horizontal hoover in the basement, and per your advice I thought it would be a bad idea to crack the thing open and fiddle with it (plus, it still gets used, so I wanted it relatively undamaged). Anyway, I had an idea; all I really wanted was the air being output from the hoover, so instead of trying to make a complex valve or fitting some sort of adapter to the exhaust, I... I put it in a bin bag Now, I knwo that this isn't a permanent solution, but for my purposes it worked really well. I got my metal up to a working heat so much quicker than last time I tried with the compressor, it was amazing! Pictures on the link below. Also, those garden fork tongs are fantastic, I'll keep an eye out for a fork, but I'm reluctant to try making something so (relatively) complex just yet. I think I'll save it until I get better. I'll PM you my email address once I'm done with this post. So yeah, I tried making a rake today (pictures also below). Took me several reheats and I think I made it too long, not wide enough, all sorts of bad, but I think I'm learning. I used a 2lb ball-peen, I swung from my arm more than my wrist and did not experience any 'jelly' symptoms this time. As far as my technique goes, as I said, I think I'm learning, albeit slowly. I ruined another piece of mild steel trying to do this the first time (metal got so thin that any blow from the hammer bent it all over the place. Is there a fix for that, or did I basically destroy the piece?). Anyway, after that I tried upsetting, and though I didn't get much of a bulge, I did get a bit! My earlier attempts with the same piece of steel had just been bashing it, so I tried rounding it off and it's not half bad (looks more like a distressed octagon, but it's rounder than it was!). At that point it started to rain, but I think by then I'd had enough. I was looking around for more metal to use but then I thought 'What would I do with it?' - right now, I think it's more a matter of practice, As John B said. What's the best way to get said practice? Just attempting basic techniques until I get better at them? Well, I've kept you waiting long enough. Without further ado, here are the pictures of my setup, including some pictures of the 'rake' I made today (Can I even call it a rake? Would 'mess' be more appropriate? ) http://imgur.com/a/nTUYS That black balloon is my hoover-in-bag air pump (patent pending). I kept worrying that a spark from the forge might hit it and deflate the whole thing, but the light drizzle we had before the real rain started today kept my fire nice and contained. Anyway, another day of fun at the forge! Let me know what you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxrbk Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 Oh and one more thing - I missed the metal a couple of times today. Glad I was swinging from the side instead of directly in front of me, because that hammer was launched back at me. My life flashed before my eyes shortly before the hammer followed suit, I'm really pleased with the anvil - that death-bounce is a good sign right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Hi Alex. If you have access to transport, you could contact David Cooper at Bridlington and see if you could go and see him for some tips, there are other 'smiths in Bridlington and Driffield you could also contact. See if you can get some hands on tuition if you can, visit some of the craft shows and see if they have smiths working there you can look at and see how they work, not just how they use the hammer, but also their stance and positioning. Question things you don't understand, most moves in blacksmithing are done for a purpose and reason, it's simple, heat a bit, beat a bit, if it goes wrong leave it in the forge and destroy all evidence (just joking on that last bit) valuable lessons are learnt from these 'wrong' bits, and will serve as a reminder of what not to do, and a yardstick to gauge your improvement to as your skills develop. If you can get some hands on guidance it will give you a good start, isolated learning is difficult and frustrating, Download and read and absorb the information in these publications: The Blacksmiths Craft, and , Wrought Ironwork, will be the most useful for you, they cover most of what you will require, there are exercises to do, and master, and are easily followed. They can be found here http://www.hct.ac.uk/Downloads/craftpublications.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxrbk Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 John, That's an incredible resource. I've downloaded both 'The Blacksmiths Craft' and 'Wrought Ironwork', and I'll read them asap. I also downloaded 'Metals for engineering craftsmen' (looked interesting and useful) and 'The blacksmith's illustrated manual'. My housemate has a car, I drive but I can't afford to keep one while I'm studying. My plan is to get two of my housemates interested in smithing (both medics, but both far too intelligent and in need of hobbies!) and then perhaps pool our resources towards learning. Once they've contracted 'metal fever' (the good kind) I'm sure that a drive up to Bridlington won't be out of the question! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimsShip Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Hey Alex, I'm about as new to this as you are, and although I'll leave the actual forging techniques to the experts, I will give you a bit of advice from my own experience. The anvil you have looks awesome, but you should really try and find a better log or base for it and secure it down. I'd hate to have you lose a foot should that ever get tippy due to mud, or hammering or whatever. The copper pipe looks a bit thin from what i've read and tried myself. I built a brake drum forge before scoring a Champion one of my own, and all the tutorials used a bigger sized black pipe. (I tell you, making that thing was almost as much fun as smithing!) You may want to try building one for yourself, and bring the forge to waist level. Although you did a fine job as it is, my back would be mush from all the stooping you must be doing! (Yeah, i'm old.) It sounds like you're having fun, and learning at a decent pace and those are really the most important things! Happy Hammering! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leighwill Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Chicken parmos all the way pal. I'm still basically a beginner myself but any help i can give i will, took a basic smithing course with peat oberon at preston park in middlesbrough and a bladesmthing course with hector cole in swindon. also got some good stuff on disc, books and such, if you drop me your email ill dig them out and send them to you. leigh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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