Deer hooves and case hardening

[oscer]

Hi folks. Looking for some advise , I made a spanner wrench out of a piece of 5/8" sqare stock, hot rolled I think, I don't remember might have been cold rolled but any way I figured before I use it very much I should case harden the end. I probably should just order a can of Kasenit. however I was wondering if any of you blacksmiths out there use hooves for case hardening and if so how it is done? Thanks in advance oscer.

[macbruce]

No reason it shouldn't, bone meal works too along with all sorts of carbon rich material. Why just the end? I'd do the whole thing. I use a black2'' pipe nipple with bell ends. Pop it all in and roast.......

[ironwolfforgeca]

How about Supper Quench it ? if its mild steel just a Idea

[JerryLWatson]

How is case hardening done on mild steel with bone meal ? Also, what is "Supper Quench"?

[David Einhorn]

Super Quench as posted by:
http://www.cdblacksmiths.org/tooltips.html

5 gal water
5lb salt
28oz Dawn Ulta Blue dishwashing detergent
8 oz Shaklee Basic-I*.

[Timothy Miller]

This is the short explanation. The item to be case hardened is put in a closed fire proof container a carbon rich substance is packed around the item. The item is heated in the forge for a period of hours or even days. The carbon is absorbed by the item this forms a thin skin of hardenable steel on the item. This item can now be hardened it will have a hard surface with a tough inner core. as far as super quench goes it is a mixture that is used to quench mild steel that will make it harden more so than water. These are both methods that allow one to avoid the expense and extra work of using tool steel to make tools though the results in most cases are inferior to the real thing.

[Randy]

Just slowly bringing your metal, even wrought iron, up to a low welding head in a coal forge will impregnate the surface with a lot of carbon.

[Randy]

In regards to your original question about deer hooves, the old way was to take hooves, bone and or leather and pack into a small tin can. Place the piece that you want to carbonize into the center of it and then heat the whole thing to red heat for 8 hours. Then dump the whole works into water to harden the metal. That's why they cam up with casite or caseinite and why I just bring it up to welding temperature. If you doubt this proceedure, put the piece on the grinder and look at the carbon sparks. Do the treatment and then look again at the carbon sparks. Quite the difference!

[Steve Sells]

Of course you know that you are going to spend a lot more money on fuel for the case hardening than if you used the correct steel in the first place?

But know ya know both that case hardening isnt cheap, and that IFI has a section with a lot of HT information (2 sections actually one for general and one for blades)

[Larry H]

I would try super quench.....the trick is to heat the object and quench...twice. You can use jet dry ( Dish washer stuff) instead of Shaklee just ask Ian Lowe, he's a witness that super quench works. Oh yeah....make sure to use a scrubbing motion when quenching or it won't work

[Willis]

Around here, Wakulla and Leon counties Florida just about every smith keeps at least a gallon of super quench in their shop. I use it mainly for oyster knives and RR spike knives.

[canman]

Do you use the same amount of jet dry as the shaklee product?

[Randy]

I don't understand why you wnat to spend money and hassle with products when heating it works. Most of the quenches aren't any better than using cold water and swishing the tool around when you cool it. That's what the chemicals do, stop air bubbles from forming. Doing a figure 8 with the tool washes the bubble off and cools the tool quicker.

[Timothy Miller]

I don't understand why you wnat to spend money and hassle with products when heating it works. Most of the quenches aren't any better than using cold water and swishing the tool around when you cool it. That's what the chemicals do, stop air bubbles from forming. Doing a figure 8 with the tool washes the bubble off and cools the tool quicker.

I have to back up randy on this one. Super quench works but so does a vigorous quench in water. It may be marginally better but vaporized soap fumes are rough on the throat and eyes.

[Larry H]

use the whole bottle of jet dry

[Steve Sells]

Just slowly bringing your metal, even wrought iron, up to a low welding head in a coal forge will impregnate the surface with a lot of carbon.

Prove that statement please, as I disagree about getting "alot". Carbon migration does move into the steel. but only superficially at the surface, not deep and surely not much.

[Randy]

A lot is a lot. Take the raw metal and put it on the grinder and note the carbon sparks. Take the same piece and heat to welding. Now back to the grinder. I think you'll be surprised at the amount of carbon and how deep it is.

[ThomasPowers]

Note that at high temps and long times you can actually get too much carbon in a piece. We tried making blister steel from some wrought iron and had it at a nice orange for 30 hours and it came out more like cast iron---just crumpled when we tried to forge it.

"The Cementation of Iron and Steel" will tell you WAY more than you want to know about the process unless you are a historic iron working techniques dweeb, (yeah it's on my bookshelf...)

One of the big problems with early steels was that the extended high temp soak promoted grain growth which heavy forging was needed to refine. More modern steels can be thermal cycled to refine grain.

[oscer]

Thanks for the replies fellas, I've never case hardened anything before and didn"t realize that it had to soak for so long.

[ThomasPowers]

Depends on how deep the case you want! it's a time and temp process. "Steelmaking before Bessemer, vol I Blister steel" mentions that they would heat their chests to a low red for a week and not get complete carburization.

[MattBower]

Depends how thick you want the case to be. The modern products like Cherry Red and Kasenit have catalysts to make the carbon migration happen faster, so you can get a very thin skin -- we're talking thousandths of an inch, here -- quite quickly. But that thin skin isn't good for much besides abrasion resistance, which I doubt is a major concern in your application. If you want to make the entire wrench stronger, you'll need much deeper carbon penetration, and that'll require pack carburizing at high heat for a good while. It's much simpler to just use the proper steel from the get-go.

I wouldn't bother with hooves, leather or the like for pack carburizing. Finely ground charcoal is a purer source of carbon. When I've done it, I've used charcoal, with a little washing soda (sodium carbonate) to hopefully speed up carbon penetration. The commercial pack carburizing compounds commonly use a mix of "energizers"/catalysts including washing soda, and much larger proportions of some other, more exotic compounds like barium carbonate, which aren't as easy to get ahold of (and probably aren't as safe to use or dispose of) as sodium carbonate.

[knots]

Hi folks. Looking for some advise , I made a spanner wrench out of a piece of 5/8" sqare stock, hot rolled I think, I don't remember might have been cold rolled but any way I figured before I use it very much I should case harden the end. I probably should just order a can of Kasenit. however I was wondering if any of you blacksmiths out there use hooves for case hardening and if so how it is done? Thanks in advance oscer.

It might be worth a try to harden and temper as is. Or try testing a piece of the original bar from which your spanner is made. If It is A36 no telling what the carbon content is . I like the super quench idea.