clinton Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I want to forge some kelp and it is a tricky shape. I plan on using this element in different gates and railing projects in the future so I want to be able to make several pieces in an efficient manner. What I am thinking is a spring swage that has two shapes- one side does the point and the other side does the bulb at the rear. Then once the bulb is shaped flatten and texture the end to finish the element. Here is the kelp that I gathered at the beach, it was hot here so it got dried up some on the flat tail section. They measure around 3 inches long and about 7/8 inch round at the wide point. They do vary in size of course, some smaller and some bigger. I think there are texture swages that will do the flat part, but I plan to make a swage for the bulb end that I can use under the power hammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 The bulb elements look allot like leaf blanks I have forged before spreading sideways......narrow combo PH dies are what I use for this kind of shape and they go pretty quick....The leafy thing looks pretty straightfoward... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 The bulb looks like what we make from pipe when we are making chile peppers from black iron pipe. Can you do them separately and then weld them together? (or braze...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 My approach would be to forge a bulb shape (taper end fuller in and form bulb end, make final shape) leaving the handle end neck in about 3/8" diameter (this will be the basis for your leaf) then sink this in a spring die/swage Heat your blank bar, neck in the end at an appropriate dimension allowing enough metal to fill the cone, then swage down as normal under the PH, Make a pair of tongs to secure the bulb in then use this to forge the leaf bit Cut off at appropriate length and forge in the rough leaf profile form, then forge this down which will spread out and lengthen to give your leaf, texture could be added at the same time, curl the final shapes for individuality. Others may have different ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 I have seen this done with pipe, and it is probably easier to do that way, but I want to do them out of solid stock one piece. John B- we are on the same page here, I hope to finish the swage today and try it out. I had to reshape a piece of round stock to make the swage, it was a piece of 1 3/4 inch round that I forged into 1 3/4 x 1 1/8 the material is 4140 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted October 15, 2011 Author Share Posted October 15, 2011 I finished the swage tool today and it works pretty good so I am happy with that. I just need to figure out the best sequence and dimensions to get optimum results. I forged a few blanks today and I ran out of material and time so I will have another go at it tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 I got the swage working like a dream, I just forge the stem area down to about 1/2 inch dia leaving around 1 1/2 inches of parent stock and start the point in the same heat. Then while that is in the forge I put the spring swage in and use it to finish off. I can use the swage to do the point without starting it first but it seems to work better if I start the point before going to the swage its alot of material to move, I am forging this with 3/4 inch round stock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Looking good there Clinton- I don't know if you are having problems with cold shuts and flashing while forging the bulbs. If you are, remove about 1/4 or more of the radius from both edges of the pattern part of the swage, top and bottom. (Soften the edges of the pattern). Depending on the shape, I like to leave about 1/3 of the swage pattern in the inner most part of the die. It will make turning the part while forging easier too. I can show a picture of what I mean if my words aren't cutting it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 that all looks very cool clinton - scuse my ignorance and im sure its obvious but i cant understand why you made the bulb in two pieces? why didnt you do the whole shape in one go/place on the swage? i have not made one of these tools which is why i am asking - but i think i will for something or other soon, so i would like to know! thanks. someone groovy is ordering something as random/specific as Kelp work?? cool :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 Beth- I chose to make the die in a two part set up because of the amount of material that is being forged and the size limits of my power hammer. I did not think that I could forge this size in one shot with my power hammer. Also I can vary the size of the forging a little so I get some that are short and some longer. My plan right now is to make a sample grill using this element so I can show it to potential customers (I really do not have any orders at this time) Fe- there is no flashing going on and I do understand what you are saying, by starting the point first before going into the swage I avoid this type of problem, the point is where the majority of the movement is going on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkunkler Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Depending on the shape, I like to leave about 1/3 of the swage pattern in the inner most part of the die. It will make turning the part while forging easier too. I can show a picture of what I mean if my words aren't cutting it.... Could you explain this part further please, yes a picture would be nice. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I'll take a picture of a die I have. Stay tuned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 thanks clinton, that makes sense - i like how you can vary them all slightly because of this. great idea for a frill - i hope you catch a customer in with your groovy sample - make sure we see the pictures :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuge Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 There is a photo on page 35 of the Hot iron newsletter in the 2006-3 edition of a fire screen featuring a similar form. The guy nailed it. I would go for pipe because you could individualize them real easy. A dent here, a bit of a poof there...The bulb doesn't seem to be the hard part though, that flat bit is going to take some r+d to make "right". heres a link to the HIN page, a silly huge resource.http://blacksmith.org/forums/content/231-Hot-Iron-News-Archives Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 That is a good example of Bull Kelp on the fire place screen. The kelp that I am working on is quite different from that. I am still working on the texture die, I got a little busy with birthday parties and looking for work the last couple of days. I did rebuild the saddle that clamps to my lower die and holds the swage in the hammer. The first one I made was not rigid enough to do the job and was working loose so it had to be rebuilt. Here is a picture that I found on Wikipedia of what they call Brown Giant Kelp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 thats lovely seaweed stuff clinton - beautifully made nature has a way with proportions and intervals etc doesnt it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 To get the width on the leaf I would start with 1" and put the bulb on like you are doing and make another, larger "bulb", tapered freehand on powerhammer, and come back and flattening, draw sideways with your texture dies. I would not use springswage for texture. I may even put a groove in the end of your pointing die to allow a stem of sorts off the point of the bulb to attatch to whatever like it does in nature. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted October 19, 2011 Author Share Posted October 19, 2011 Yes it is amazing beth, I have been finding this stuff on the beach and thinking how cool it would be to forge. Now I am finally getting around do doing it and I am making some progress. Fosterob- I did try using 1 inch material and it was way too much to work with. I think the groove is a great idea, leave a little stem to attach to the main branch. I did get to try out the texture swage and it works pretty good, I am going to try to soften the edges a little more and with some practice I think it will do the job. I forged these by starting at the bottom near the bulb and giving it a few whacks then move up and forge again trying to line up with the previous lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted October 20, 2011 Author Share Posted October 20, 2011 I forged some more of these yesterday, I am trying different things along the way to find out what works best. I am forging a rough shape, then I go to the spring swage to shape the bulb, I tried shaping the point first then the bulb and this seems to work better. Once I get the bulb end complete I cut it off then draw a tapper on the end that will be the flat leaf part. I spread this out sideways with a 5/8 inch fuller, then use the fullering die on the power hammer to draw this out. I want to make a set of drawing dies like Tom Clark sold with his hammers it is very aggressive and i think it would work good for this type of forging. I finish off with the texture die and apply some oil at black heat I am going to weld these to the main stem and make a frame for the sample panel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Looking good Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 consistently inconsistent! Good stuff going on!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted October 21, 2011 Author Share Posted October 21, 2011 Thanks Rob And yes Fe- they are totally random just like in nature, I got one branch assembled yesterday (had to do some running around so it was a short day) My girlfriend posted a picture on her face book and one of her friends wanted to buy it now so that is a good sign. I have enough elements made up to make one more like this then I will build a frame to fit for the sample display Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 $$$ is always the best vote! Looks Great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 Ya $$$ is good- I told her it would be $200.00 delivered, have not heard back- hmmmm I got the other branch assembled yesterday, now I just need to come up with a design for the frame using material that I have in the rack. I want to do something that shows some traditional joinery. I have some 3/4 inch square stock that I may use. The size of the frame is 42 inches tall by 32 inches wide= 148 inches that would be 23.5 lbs, I do not want to make it too heavy. I was thinking that some 1 1/2 x 1/4 bar stock would be nice, but I do not have any on hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 That looks really good Clinton! I think I would make the frame slightly thicker than the stem of the kelp and about 2 or 3 times wider. 3 times is a balance that usually seems to work well. When you say traditional joinery- Lap joint with rivets or mortice and tenon? You could do upset square corners with a lap joint on the bottom.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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