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Is this fixer upper worth the effort?


Rob Gorrell

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Hi. I picked up this small post vice a year or so ago and am finally getting around to thinking about maybe doing something to fix it up.....

The fellow I got if from thinks it is an early design, maybe 18th century? I have no idea. It is really pitted and needs a new spring. Also, it will not close all the way. From other vices on this site I am thinking that it is missing a large washer on the front?

Here are a few shots of the vise and its parts. Any suggestions or comments?

visehead.jpgthread-end-web.jpg
vise-part-1web.jpg
viseknob.jpg

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Looks to be in fairly good using shape as the screw thread and screw box looks pretty good. Does it have a rectangular hole under the back screw area for a tanged mounting plate? That's what I usually look for when I'm looking for *old*. Also any sign that the screwbox was brazed together from lots of pieces wit the screw thread brazed in the resulting build up?

It looks like a user to me! Of course I use a 3" vise, that does have the tanged mounting plate and has a screwbox brazed up from a handful of parts with a brazed in screwthread. It's part of my "old but not *really* old" set up and I use it *gently* too bringing a more rugged one along as well if I am expecting people besides me to be using my set up.

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Crap. No it's not. I drove the wife's car today. I'll look tonight.
Here is a group shot of the parts.

I guess the real question I am trying to answer is, is this thing of any real value to preserve? I want to put it outside as a beater since it is already so pitted and abused. But if it is "old" enough to need babying I will put it inside. My gut says its nothing more that an abused vise looking for a job.

viseallparts.jpg

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It looks to be in rather good shape other than a few, fairly easy to make, parts missing. The washer can be made by turning a piece of 1/2 inch square into a welded circle slightly smaller than needed, then refining the shape and size to suit the vise. The one side of it is probably cupped and the other is flat.

The spring is even easier because it can be mild steel that is cold bent if need be. A piece of 1/4x1 (or what ever the width of the upright is) is probably all you need. Fishtailing the bottom end hot so you can have tabs to catch the moving jaw is not a bad idea either.

If you take the bolt out of the pivot I bet there is wear on it. Cleaning it up and putting it back in with a washer to keep it 1/2 thread out may correct the alignment by having the worn side down. If that is not the fix then something is bent. While you have it apart clean it well and grease it. (Edit: it looks like the leg is bent between the bracket and the pivot this can be straightened.)

If it is going to live outside I would clean it up and paint the lower portions of it and have a means to protect the top parts and screw from weather...an overturned bucket at least.

Phil

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Looks like you have a wrap around mounting plate; now it could be a replacement for a tanged mounting plate; but most likely not.

That is not a particularly old or unique postvise; USE IT!

Remember that in smithing 100 years old tools are *common* and have no special cachet. Shoot we don't consider anvils to be "old" till they get around 200 years plus!

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I think what you decide to do and how you intend to fix it is dependent on what you want out of blacksmithing. Some people just want to get to work and they will use anything that will work. Others venerate the past and want their tools to reflect that. Then there are those who fix things in what ever way that works as long is it is a solid repair. It depends where you fall along that continuum. It would be a very good skill building exercise to make the hardware at the forge and reset the jaws. That being said you may need to pay the bills and have no time for this nonsense. Either way It is a cool old vise, enjoy.

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Thanks guys. I'll get to work fixing it up. I am a "once in a while rev war reenactor", but my shop philosphy right now is more about using what I have and can nearly afford to buy to learn hand tool working techniques. I use a bungie cord for the "spring pole" on my wood lathe if that tells you anything. If I decide later that I want to start doing demos I will worry about authenticity then,

My grandfather had a method; hit it with a hammer, if that doesn't work, get a bigger hammer. I miss his way of thinking.

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So use it while looking for a tanged version for your "kit" in the future. I saw a couple of tanged ones for sale at Quad-State this year so they are still about.

Yup there are the "make it look like it's never been used" and the "Make it look like it just came from a working shop" groups and everything in between. I've seen a number of "interesting" old repairs on smithing equipment some showing a strong predilection to get it working cheap! that may date to the Great Depression or to hill folks isolation.

I picked up a 5.5" vise once where the jaws had a strong vertical offset. Rather than trying to reforge the cheeks (no bend in the legs) I took out the moving jaw and hot shrunk and riveted a plug in the hole and re drilled it so the jaws were aligned. Everything is hidden by the cheeks and I used a new bolt as well.

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Did you look to see if there was a tang mount hole ware the replacement mount is. That mount definitely did not come with that vise originally. The shape of the box and the of jaws of the vise definitely looks like a colonial vise to me. I bet if you clean that box in some vinegar and scrub it up with a scotch bright you will see lots of brass from it being a brazed up box. Also you can see a wedge key holding the bottom pin in the leg pivot. That is another indicator that it is a vice that 200 plus years old. Most newer vices would have a screw on nut.

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Of course *any* removable part may be from a different vise. Good catch on the wedged pivot pin!


Yes your certainly right, anything that can be removed has a good chance of not being original. The reason I say that the mount is a replacement is because of how its made. The the main vice body if heavily forged, long deep chamfers in the bar under the jaws, also the leg is tapered the entire way down. With the large amount of forging on the vise it tells me that it was likely made earlier, labor being cheep and material being expensive at the time. If the vise was made recently ( In the past 100 years) its much more likely that it would be more of the square side, low amount of forging because the labor went up in price and the material went down.
With this in mind when you look at the mount you can see that it is only a piece of flat bar with two slots in it and the bar is just twisted. A vice with the amount of forging that this one has would have a more elaborate mount. Probably having a decorative finale on the end.



MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM I just love a good vise, Oil it up and it will outlast all of us!
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Rob Gorrell, any chance you could post a better picture of the "wedge key holding the bottom pin in the leg pivot" spoken of by MLMartin? I'm a novice where post vises are concerned and any useful information is greatly appreciated. Thanks, utaholdiron.

all you want to know and more http://www.anvilfire...ksmith-vise.php
http://www.anvilmag.com/smith/107f2.htm
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You have one of the antique vises, dating I'm guessing, from the 1840 decade to the late 1700's. I think that these vises when found in the U.S., were shop-made in Britain by a team of men in a specialized smithy. I haven't seen a tenoned style vise with larger than a 4.5 inch jaw width. Most of them are 3.5" to 4".

In restoring one, I personally have a 'museum mentality.' I have three of them that I don't use, and I hope they go to a museum or an appreciative non-smith collector, some day. The typical setup for the old vises is shown in the photo. The tenoned mount has its 'arms' split-and-splayed, with the end bosses..The spring will have a hole in it to accommodate the tenon. The tenon has a horizontal slot to receive a wedge, thus holding the mount and spring in place. It was found at a later time that this method of attachment was weaker than the wrap around U-shackle [which replaced the tenon].

I have seen at least three of these antique vises with the wedged pivot pin. Later vises had a threaded bolt with nut.

Interestingly, the thrust washers of that period were normally forged of flat stock bent the 'hard way' and lap welded using the Pi x Mean Diameter formula to find approximate length. After multiplying, one times the thickness is added to allow for upsetting and scarf making. On a small piece like this, the scarfed ends may need to be cut on a slight bias, so that they meet properly. As a 21st century smith, my first thought was to make the washer out of flat stock with a hole drilled or punched. But after looking at the old washers and seeing evidence of a lap weld, I realized that the old time smiths THOUGHT LIKE SMITHS. It was easier to bend and weld, and furthermore, there might be some stock saving by doing so. In those early days, wrought iron and steel were dear.

post-74-0-42590000-1318040833_thumb.jpg

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I'd like to second Frank's approach. I think this vise is definitely worth preserving. I agree it likely dates to late 1700's or early 1800's. It's worth preserving for several reasons- it's in relatively good shape, other than the pitting. It's mostly all there, including the original pivot pin with key. it hasn't been abused by damage or bad repairs. Finally, it's not a very heavy vise meant for forging. Most of these small vises were made for bench work like filing, fitting, or use by non-blacksmiths such as silversmiths, clockmakers, etc.
It's worth preserving rare old pieces for others to study. There are plenty of newer vises around to use. I'll even trade you a heavier one that's ready to go!

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Thanks for the info. I am glad to hear that it could be a colonial period vise. Not from a value point, but from a coolness factor that this vice has maybe been around a while. I think I will not put it in use. I have a post vise in the shop and do not really need a second, just want one.

ROb

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Hi. My skills are nowhere near good enough for making the parts at this point. I am a complete beginner. I took a weekend beginner class a couple years ago that gave me the appreciation of how much I have to learn. I hope to get to spend a good bit of time this winter practicing.

ROb

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All you need are basic skills, nothing fancy about the parts needed. Of course if you like you can do an intricate mounting plate. Some of the books on antique ironwork have good examples of hinges that could be copied.

The spring is no more difficult than an S hook in my opinion since it need not be heat treated spring steel.

My 3" from QS a couple years ago had none of the loose pieces save the pivot bolt (not even a wedge for it)

I took a section of fairly light strap, (as a 3" *old* vise I did not plan to over work it!) heated it up and bent it double and forged the tenon out of the bent end. Then bent out the free ends and gave them a 90 deg twist so they would lie flat on the work bench. Any squiggliness you like on them.

The spring was mild steel. I round punched it and then drifted it square for the tang and cold adjusted the curve on it till I got what I wanted.

As I use it as a travel vise for my fairly recent kit (ie circa 150+ years ago) I decided to go with a retaining clip to hold the spring and vise to the ranged mount.

The pivot bolt I found a scrap piece of heavy sheetmetal and trimmed it to make a wedge that fit---and then I tapped the small end over so it couldn't fall out when traveling.

Started one Saturday morning very leisurely and was done before lunch.

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