Arbalist Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Would it be possible to make a copper/pewter "laminate" by pouring molten pewter into a mould containing copper sheets (edge on) with a suitable gap between them? Sounds too easy to me so I guess it wouldn't work but what do you guys think?! Vic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Sounds plausible. Oppi Untracht describes soldered mokume, which is similar to what you propose. You'd need to get your copper up to a soldering temp, though. I don't think you'd need much of a gap. Probably better to dip the copper stack into the molten pewter and let it sit until it comes up to temp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbalist Posted August 25, 2011 Author Share Posted August 25, 2011 Yes, I did think that for safety reasons alone that it would be best to heat the copper (and the ceramic container) before pouring the pewter. What sort of temperature are we talking about? Vic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Playing with liquid metals is not something to just "try out". There are various dangers and risks. (splash burns, poisoning from the gaseous lead,explosions, etc) Best not to try to learn alone, rather team up with an experienced person to help teach you, and to prevent making too many mistakes yourself, read through this and other forums (if you had already you would not be asking about what temps), welcome to the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Pewter and copper will not work well as a laminate as they have far different working characteristics! When mokume is "soldered" it's done with *Silver Solder* and not the 2-3% stuff but rather the high temp jewelry type. You could layer it that way if you plan to not work it afterwards and just have a plain straight layers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Pewter and copper will not work well as a laminate as they have far different working characteristics! When mokume is "soldered" it's done with *Silver Solder* and not the 2-3% stuff but rather the high temp jewelry type. You could layer it that way if you plan to not work it afterwards and just have a plain straight layers. All true. He simply asked if it'd be possible to form a laminate this way. I think it probably would. But you're absolutely right that it couldn't be cold worked like normal mokume. You could expose layers of soft soldered "mokume" by 3D sculpting of the billet -- but you wouldn't be able to work it back down to 2D, as with regular mokume. This could likely be done -- outside -- on a camp stove in a stainless steel sauce pan. Real pewter should melt below 500 F. Note that I have run into "pewter" mugs that were not pewter. I'm not sure what they were made of -- possibly an Al alloy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbalist Posted August 25, 2011 Author Share Posted August 25, 2011 Thanks for your thoughts guys. We use metal casting equipment at work so I have access to all the equipment required. I had considered a high content silver solder but only briefly due to the price! I thought of pewter as it's already used at work and is a nice contrast with copper. I'm not after anything too fancy in terms of pattern and had only expected to put a twist in the billet whilst hot. If thats not possible then a simple laminate may still look good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 If you were to do this it would be called "sweat soldering" and I suggest that use some heavy gauge copper foil. Flux the copper foil and pewter foil and place them in a kiln, bringing them slowly up to soldering temperature. I'm going to agree with the others though that I see little use for this combination. I have made heavy gauge copper foil and silver solder mokume gane before, sixty layers, rolled it out with my rolling mill and had a pattern that was so fine as to be almost invisible.If you want to experiment with mokume gane I suggest that you give the US quarter dollars a try as many have here on IFI. It is inexpensive and give very interesting results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Vic may not have access to US coins as we have no clue to where he's at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbalist Posted August 25, 2011 Author Share Posted August 25, 2011 Vic may not have access to US coins as we have no clue to where he's at. Gosh sorry guys, and I moan at others when they don't post where they are! I'm in UK, I'll update my profile! Yeah, quarters are out Thomas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 It's on his profile page. Surrey, UK. So no, our coins probably aren't a good option for Vic. I suspect a copper/pewter billet won't take kindly to twisting. It'll probably delaminate. There's one way to find out for sure. I've seen copper/brass mokume that looked nice, although it wasn't especially high contrast. That's not a terribly expensive alternative. Scrap brass isn't too hard to come by. I don't know how well such a billet would take to being manipulated, cold or hot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I remember seeing this ring some time ago so perhaps he could do something like this, it's all done cold and riveted together. He could alternate copper and pewter and then perhaps just grind away parts of it to show the layering a bit or grind out some holes to illustrate several layers. I'm thinking of pendents, belt buckles, those kinds of items where you could have a series of rivets holding it tightly together to prevent it from coming apart as you ground through the various layers. I can visualize the alternate use of copper, pewter, brass, copper, pewter, brass as being a nice looking combination. Long ago I used to make a silver, copper, brass laminate that work pretty well most of the time. If I got it way too hot the silver would just be sucked into the brass, poof and it was gone!http://metalriot.blo...omitrovich.html Are we the only ones that use sandwich coins in the world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I think the construction of our coins -- quarters, in particular -- is a little unusual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Got any *friends* in the States?; wouldn't take much to send a couple of bucks of quarters to you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbalist Posted August 26, 2011 Author Share Posted August 26, 2011 Yeah maybe, next time my niece visits I could get her to bring a couple of bucks worth over to play with! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick maxen Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Vic, this book is worth a read Mokume Gane by Ian Ferguson. Its on amazon but I can't add a link. I have made mokume before with brass and copper by just clamping up the sheets between two heavy steel plates about 10mm thick. Using 4 bolts to tigthen it all up. Everything has to be perfectly clean before putting the metals together. Then just put in a forge and watch for the copper to start to sweat, I think copper melts before brass. Keep an eye on it as there is a fine line between copper sweating and running out of the seams. When it is sweating it should be welding together. Mick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick maxen Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Another place to look is here www.mokume.com Stunning work by Steve Midgett. Mick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbalist Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 Thanks guys, I'll take a look. Vic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 How about this? Take the copper, and perforate it with several small holes. Sandblast it, clean throughly, and place into the melted pewter, then let solidify. With the holes the pewter will weave in and out of the copper, and the rough blasted texture will help in forming a better bond. It may work some with that being done. I say try it, and see what happens. Who knows, you may stumble onto something. Or instead of sheets, use copper wires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbalist Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 How about this? Take the copper, and perforate it with several small holes. Sandblast it, clean throughly, and place into the melted pewter, then let solidify. With the holes the pewter will weave in and out of the copper, and the rough blasted texture will help in forming a better bond. It may work some with that being done. I say try it, and see what happens. Who knows, you may stumble onto something. Or instead of sheets, use copper wires. Some good ideas there. I planned to sandblast the sheets anyway (There is blaster at work and I also have my own) but I hadn't thought about copper wire - I reckon thats a brilliant idea! Vic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 There's a guy out there who cleans and fluxes steel cable, then dips it in molten brass and brazes it solid. He calls it bronze cable damascus. Very similar to BGD's wire idea. It looks nice cut into slabs, with the steel blued. And I have an acquaintance who has poured molten bronze over BBs and blued it. THere are lots of possibilities to explore. What about cutting up a bunch of random lengths and sizes of (very clean) copper wire and/or shot (if you can get some), mixing them all up in a crucible, and pouring your pewter over that? Cutting it would expose all kinds of different surfaces. The tricky part would be eliminating trapped air spaces. There's some potential for dangerous events here, so proceed with caution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Matt, I think you could do your idea with random lengths of clean copper wire and pewter by just stirring them into some pewter as in comes to an almost setting up temperature. Or perhaps use some Polytech TinSil7060 mold material to make a rubber mold, place the copper bits in and them pour the pewter in to encase the copper. The problem with mixing them in the crucible is with the copper settling to the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Just pour enough pewter to cover the copper, let the ingot solidify in the mold, and slab it out with a saw. At least that's what I was picturing. As long as the copper isn't molten and doesn't float (copper won't float on pewter, will it? hmmm . . . ), separation shouldn't be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 NO! Brass melts several hundred degrees F below copper! As a rule of thumb alloys melt below pure metals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 ? I was talking about copper and pewter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.