brynnb Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I've noticed there's two major types of bench-top belt sanders. Ones like this:http://www.amazon.co...13938725&sr=1-4 and ones like this:http://www.amazon.co...13938927&sr=1-3 In many of the books I've read, they recommend at least 2 inches wide and I think 48 inches long. I don't understand what the benefit of a longer belt is and which type would be more appropriate for grinding/sharpening knives. The 1" wide (first one) has the benefit of there being a table attached to rest the blade on and has a longer belt, while the second is a lot wider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Both are flimsy underpowered Chinese junk they contain plastic parts that will not stand up to grinding steel. You would do better buying a few good Nicholson files and filing your knives by hand. At least you will acquire better hand skills in the process and own a few good tools. Good quality belt grinders are in the $500 and up range. Longer belts last longer, wider belts produce up to a point a smoother finish because you can grind larger portions of the blade at once with out the edges of the belt dinging in to the knife blank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciladog Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Brynnb, If you intend to do some serious knife grinding don't buy some piece of garbage just because the price is cheap. Good tools last a lifetime and retain their relsale value. Buy one of those you linked to and it's like flushing money down the potty in more ways than one. Most of the smiths I know including bladesmiths use Baders. Yes they cost alot (you can find them used) but you can make them do just about anything you want them to with all the different accessories available. And you can always make your own accessories. Check out the bench models.http://www.stephenbader.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I know a lot of people who've gotten by with the Grizzly until they could upgrade to something better, and who don't regret it. I am not a big stock removal guy, and my experience with belt grinders is fairly minimal, but I can tell you a few things. Longer belts wear longer and don't build up heat as fast. 2"x72" belts come in a wider variety of grit and belt options than just about anything else. The wide, horizontal sanders are made for wood and aren't designed to allow plunges. Also, the wider belts are more limiting if you want to do other than wide, flat surfaces. I think just about any maker I know would prefer the upright style Grizzly to the horizontal woodworker's sander. To give you a sense of the range of things, here are a few examples of real knifemaking grinders:http://www.youtube.c...h?v=7j9nkzbAsmshttp://www.youtube.c...h?v=BYllaxuzMk0http://www.youtube.c...h?v=BYllaxuzMk0 A nicer option if you're going with the simple, upright style of grinder is the Coote. The cost of a Grizzly will get you a good way to a Coote,http://www.cootebeltgrinder.com/, except that once you have the Coote you still need a motor. Used motors are usually scroungable at a decent price, occasionally even free if you're really good. High quality commercial grinders are very expensive, and not within the budget of the majority of hobbyists. There is a great deal of DIY activity when it comes to belt grinders, ranging from Tracy Mickley's No-Weld Grinder, to a kit made by Polar Bear Forge, to all kinds of individually designed on-offs. The Internet is chock full of plans, many of them free. A good grinder can definitely be made at home, even if you lack welding skills, but you'll still spend a substantial amount of money on it. If nothing else, you'll just about have to buy the wheels (unless you have a decent lathe and know how to use it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 By the way, Wayne Coe's grinder looks very impressive, and it's a good deal for what it is. I know he has a lot of satisfied customers. It's still a lot of money for most hobbyists, though.http://www.waynecoeartistblacksmith.com/Grinders.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brynnb Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 Thanks for all the replies. I know the machines I'm looking at are not professional quality and will break eventually. I'm only just now starting out, however, and don't want to spend/invest a ton into parts/machines until I feel like it's something I'll stick with. As MattBower said, I know many people who have used both types just fine for small hobby knife making, but I was unsure which type would be better. I'll stick with the upright model as Matt said. I'm going to be giving the Gingery metal shop books a shot and those larger belt sanders look like something I could make with a lathe/milling machine. I'll also invest into a set of files as you mentioned southshoresmith, but I'll have to do some reading to see which types I will need since I've never looked at them before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I have an old Mead Bandsander, which has eliminated my need for a bench grinder. They do exist on the used market, and can occasionally be found at garage sales and on Craigslist. That Coote is a very similar device. Better quality machines are also rebuildable for much less money than replacement. For draw filing (and many other surface filing operations) a single cut 12 inch mill file with a proper handle will take care of you. Drill a golf ball and ram it on if you must, but put a handle on, this is for both control and safety. Nicely shaped wooden handles are better. When the file wears out, turn it into stock and reuse the handle on a new one. Phil I take that back, the coote looks like a lot more machine than my meade. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 On the subject of worn out files, I have heard great feedback about these guys:http://www.boggstool.com/. I can't quite exact prices, but I'm told it's much less than the cost of a good quality new file. I have a variety of files from needle files to 14"+ mill files, in a wide variety of shapes, almost all bought used for a buck or two each, most by good makers -- Nicholson, Simonds, Grobet, etc. For a rundown on file types, tooth coarseness and use, see here: http://www.evenfallstudios.com/woodworks_library/nicholson_guide_to_filing_2006.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolano Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I just bought a Grizzly. It has a few downsides, but I dont regret it at all. It is by far the best tool you will get for the price, it is very solid and very powerful. If you can afford to spend more on one, though, by all means go for it. I've heard good things about the KMG and the Bades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayden H Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I have a 1 by 32 from hrabor freight, it works pretty well, it needs the platten straightened, or wrapped in friction-less fiber, I have a Delta 1 by 32 with a 5 inch disc, (it works about as well as the harbor freight one), and an old sears and roebuck co. 4 by 32, with 8 disc. (took the disc off, that thing spinning sharpening a knifes, a bad idea) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brynnb Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 Is the disc on the side actually useful for knives or should I get a model that doesn't have it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brynnb Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 On the subject of worn out files, I have heard great feedback about these guys:http://www.boggstool.com/. I can't quite exact prices, but I'm told it's much less than the cost of a good quality new file. I have a variety of files from needle files to 14"+ mill files, in a wide variety of shapes, almost all bought used for a buck or two each, most by good makers -- Nicholson, Simonds, Grobet, etc. For a rundown on file types, tooth coarseness and use, see here: http://www.evenfalls...filing_2006.pdf Thanks, that guide is useful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 A lot of makes use the disk more than the belt for doing flat grinds. However as mentioned trying to use something designed for wood to work metal is sort of like trying to use your car as a boat! It would be unfortunate if you decide you don't like knifemaking just because the tools you were using made it much more difficult to do a good job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 On that note I'll add that everyone I know who has used one of those 1" belt sanders for knives (blades, that is, not for shaping handles -- they're OK for that) has hated it. Stock removal with those is verry slow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brynnb Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 On that note I'll add that everyone I know who has used one of those 1" belt sanders for knives (blades, that is, not for shaping handles -- they're OK for that) has hated it. Stock removal with those is very slow Beats hand files though Picked one up from craigslist today for $20. Works well so far and even if it winds up being garbage I can still use the motor for other applications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Hmm. With a sharp file on annealed steel I'd just about take that bet. But for $20, have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 I know a number of beginners who rough out with an angle grinder and then file to close and then go to silicon carbide paper on a hard block for finishing. Filing can be very meditative it also teaches you to forge as close as possible to finished form and the necessity of good hammer control---once you can see how *1* bad ding from the edge of the hammer can cost you an extra hour filing you *make* the effort to get it right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KYBOY Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 I believe i heard Peter Ross say "10 minutes at the forge will save you an hour at the vise" I know a number of beginners who rough out with an angle grinder and then file to close and then go to silicon carbide paper on a hard block for finishing. Filing can be very meditative it also teaches you to forge as close as possible to finished form and the necessity of good hammer control---once you can see how *1* bad ding from the edge of the hammer can cost you an extra hour filing you *make* the effort to get it right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 This is also why we suggest folks learn to forge before they start on knives. Too much time/stock wasted because they can't hit true and even! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brynnb Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 I tested out my $20 harbor freight upright belt sander and was pleased with the results of only a few minutes gentle work on a quite rusty rail road spike: 80 or 120 grit belt, I forget which. Some random cheap AO type. Semi-mirrored polish on top real quick. In terms of stock removal it's not super fast, but sharpening the end to an edge sharp enough to cut myself was easy. I wasn't able to press hard enough to stop the belt. I imagine a 40 grit ceramic belt will work really well at stock removal. Quick question though: Is it bad to use the area of the belt that isn't pressed against a back plate? It's a lot quieter and easier to use there. Thomas: I'm starting blacksmithing classes in a few weeks which will hopefully give me the foundation to start working on tools and knives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 They're great for sharpening. As far as using the slack belt, it's there for a purpose. It's not bad to use it as long as you don't expect to get a flat surface out of it. It'll round off grind lines and the like. But it has its uses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpotter Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 If you have never run a real belt grinder it is hard to compare what you have with what is out there. Having poor tools can be frustrating but learning skills is what is important. If you get a chance find someone local to give you a hand and maybe you can run their grinder. I built a 5hp belt grinder and I call it the meat rake since I tend to shred my fingers on it occasionally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brynnb Posted August 28, 2011 Author Share Posted August 28, 2011 I wear gloves and eye protection with mine The metal got pretty hot (too hot to hold without gloves) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Eye protecting is good for any work, but if your metal is getting hot you can ruin your temper. If you are wearing gloves you arre just begging to get them caught and pulled into the grinder. Hold with your bare hands, less chance of slippage this way. If it gets warm just cool in water and dry off a bit (I wipe on my apron, some belts do not like water) and resume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 I wear gloves and eye protection with mine The metal got pretty hot (too hot to hold without gloves) NOT good to wear gloves, If the belt touches the glove it is more likely to grab the glove and suck it into the machine bringing your hand with it, if it touches your hand then you just loose a little skin. Also if your doing knifes or things you dont want to get hot and ruin the temper then , well you dont want it to get hot, learn to cool the part in water often before it starts to heat up. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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