lupiphile Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 howdy ya'll, I might have the opportunity to purchase a beautiful old building, that used to be an ornamental iron shop long ago. floor to cieling windows, ibeam braced roof( hello bridge crane!) and a loading dock, ohmy! BUT and this is a big one for me. most of the building has a basement. I mean the joists are like 6" on center and theres piles of I beams and structural steel columns everywhere also with about 4" of concrete on top of the middle portion of the floor but still. Its mostly air not earth under where the shop would have to go. I'd have no misgivings about drivng forklifts all over that place but I do have a two piece 2b and I'm just not sure if anything would accomodate that in such a building. I mean I could build a masonry column and fill it with umpteen yards of concrete but that seems a hair on the ridiculous side. Any of you have experience with doing large work on a second floor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Why not shore it up with some plate and an I beam or two.....pics would help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I would personally consider the Ibeam shoring Mac mentioned, but also run steel I beam (or concrete) columns down to the floor and bear them on friction piles. I would think the impact of a hammer is different in nature than the point load bearing of a forklift. Being a 2-piece, are you going to have to have the anvil sunk down relative to the frame? Sounds like a cool project. I too would like to see pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupiphile Posted August 4, 2011 Author Share Posted August 4, 2011 Sorry about the lack of pictures thus far. I live In philly in what some would call the the "Ghetto" thusly most of the real estate agents are either fly by nighters, or uninterested in the listings they've been sadled with in my zip code. As a result I've yet to get anybody to come down and "show me" the building. so after about three days of unreturned phone calls, I figured out the combination to those little realtor locks( the one s that hold the key) and let myself in. It was dark. very dark. so no pictures as of yet. I did some measuring. and some leak testing, then called the realtor back to let him know that I let myself in and I was still serious about the property and let him know about how the neighborhood tire place had been dumping tires in the side lot . He didn't seem suprised, about my tactics or the tires. Thats kinda how things are around here. I then went back in the day time to show my fiancee( look hon, one day all this will be yours) thankfully she too likes messed up abandon buildings. Her first comment was " this one has a roof, are you sure you want it?" As to the shoring, I have an Idea as to what might be sound(ish) but it still seems like such an off the wall project, I was just wondering if anyone had ever tried anything like this before. thanks for the replies, matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewed Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Could you stick it not in the middle? If you go against an outside wall that would really help with the support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 So you going to wait after dark and roll all those tires back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I am pretty sure this has been done before. I suspect some I-beam supports to bearing plates on the floor and ceiling of the lower level will be in order. I wonder if Grant (Nakedanvil) has helped on one of these. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Just for laughs you should ask a structural engineer about your problem, please let us know what color he turns/if she starts to shake/how many times they say "no no no no" then go ahead and do it given the above advice about shoring, mass, location, etc. I built timberframe buildings for years, so try this on the beams to check for rot or failure. Bring a hammer and a thin bladed knife next time you visit. Bounce the hammer off each beam about each foot or so. There should be a little bounce to the blow, and it should give a very faintly resonant sound. "Punky" wood is onamonapeic, rotten wood will sound like it (or the hammer will just sink in and give no sound at all). The thin knife is for when you think you have found a soft spot- do a penetration test. If it sinks in a long way, red flag. A lot of old mill buildings had Doug Fir beams, and DF is the standard for large beam structural calculations. If your potential building has fir beams, you can find structural specs and static load calcuations fairly easily online. 'Course a 2b has all kinds of odd dynamic loading, sounds scary to me, you'd better trade someone your 2b for a press or something with a static load. Come to think of it, I'll trade you my press for it, I've got a slab on grade shop, so you can sleep soundly at night knowing that my floor won't fall in . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 there is a Beaudry hammer in Astoria OR laying on its side where the wood floor underneath gave way... Its in a long abandoned shop that has been untouched for many years... its a fair sized hammer, I would think at the very least as big as a 2B if not bigger... It had some sort of a timber foundation built into the wood floor but I have no idea what was supporting the timber foundation (I have never been into the building, just looked through the windows at all the goodies inside) A 2B is a little hammer really... Less than 8,000 pounds combined weight.... I would not think twice about running it on a floor like your describing... supporting it somehow to the ground below would be wise but I doubt it would ever pound it way through the floor with out some other extenuating circumstances (rot, fatigue, poor construction practices or whatever) I ran my 3B on a cart with casters, forged some 3" 4140 shaft... had to block the wheels to keep it from rolling away as I pushed the bar in.... Is it ideal? nope... but its silly to think a hammer this size simply needs a foundation to function.... To function most effectively yes... But its going to make dents in iron even if its hanging from a helicopter suspended in thin air... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DClaville Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 just build a steel box or wood should work as well, in the basement under where you want the hammer to be and then cut the floor out and and fill her up then put the hammer on top that should do it. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Massey supplied some hammers to the Royal Navy that were fitted in support ships during the great war, and the 2nd........ My gut feeling is 'for gods sake you must be insane' , realistically I know that if you find a way to spread the footprint over a large area, and isolate whatever hammer supporting device you come up with with some Tico 's' pads to prevent the worst of the vibration transmission to the building it will prolly be a.ok! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 But its going to make dents in iron even if its hanging from a helicopter suspended in thin air... OK..that is on the list if I win the lottery..which I don't play...seems the odds are about the same either way. RIc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Well the "2 parts" might be an issue and would renting a crane be cheaper than a helicopter? While the test would be equivalent if you had it free hanging an inch or two off the floor it would be much more interesting having Ric in a harness with the hot steel and the hammer hanging say 80' off the ground. I will watch from a considerable distance with a scope! Ric, we must discuss media rights and check to see if New England Life is still in business... Since many of the big hammer's foundation instructions speak of having crisscross layers of timber below them as part of their foundations that might be a fast way to build it up between the floors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupiphile Posted August 6, 2011 Author Share Posted August 6, 2011 Thanks for all the imput. Larry, I figured you'd chime in with a heartening " can do" response. You're right , in the grand scheme of things its really not that big of a hammer and it does have a significant anvil to tup ratio, so thats something. BUT just when ive just about convinced myself , I have an intense moment of vacillation, akin to what john N had mentioned. I used to work in structural steel so I have an Idea as to how I'd go about shoring up the floor, but still I just feel like maybe there's something huge and unseen that I might be overlooking.. Iwas just wondering if anyone here has, tried something like this. or even heard about something like this being attempted. I'll definitly get some pictures in the next week. Its just such an enticing space, and with owner financing, its like a messed up abandoned dream. Take care, Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Don't forget you could cut a hole in the floor and put the hammer in the basement! Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 I think (like John N) all you need to do is spread the load out. Like maybe put a big 1" thick plate under it. Oh, yeah, I believe the Nazel at Yellen's was on an upper floor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupiphile Posted August 6, 2011 Author Share Posted August 6, 2011 Alright, This is seeming less and less crazy, thanks ya'll . Nay, the nazels at the old shop were all on the first floor, but when they were de-installed it was revealed all they sat in was about 2 1/2" of crushed oyster shell! Ive seen a pretty funny picture of abunch of smiths standing around the pit staring into it with confused befuddlement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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