space hammer Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Ok, so I'm soon going to be taking over operations of an architectural iron shop. A little background first: This is the shop where I first started working in metal. I worked for the owner for a while then when the economy went bad, he let both of his employees go. I then went to work for a friend if his who owns an iron furniture store. There I did all the custom work, mostly furniture, gates, fences, etc. For the past two years, I've had a constantly increasing march of projects, these days I always have three or four or five jobs in queue. Then my old boss decided that he didn't want to work for himself and found a regular job. Now my current boss is going to buy the architectural iron shop and put me in charge of it. Working with me will be an older guy who has been in the fab and blacksmithing business for 40 years and has done every sort of iron job imaginable. The shop we are purchasing is fully outfitted. It includes mig and tig welders, tables, an excellent bandsaw, a 55kg self contained power hammer, anvil, gas forges, hammers, tongs, clamps, 14 years worth of jigs and fixtures, and all the other little things you need. To give you an idea of scale, when I worked there we did projects like a $30k rail job, a $45k walkway arbor for a university, and a $60k set of bronze lanterns and sign frame for an historic church. We already have the first job lined up for after the takeover, a $35k interior rail job. So, we are undertakIng quite a lot here. I'm going to be going from overseeing $1000-$2000 jobs to doing jobs ten and twenty times as big. All that said, what kind of advice cab you guys give me? Any tips on workflow and organization? Whatever input y'all can provide, I will be grateful for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Knowing where you are would help.......:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Glad it's you and not me. I got tired just reading about the shop. It sounds like a GREAT opportunity, though. Good luck and keep us posted on how it's going. Thanks for the post. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 For now I just have a couple of questions. Are you going to be running the whole business or just the shop. Running a business involves beating the bushes for work (new business development), making all sorts of financial decisions, worrying about cash flow, making payroll, keeping financial records up to date, preparation of tax documents, in addition designing the work and preparing shop drawings, measuring for projects, producing the work. and installing the work. That is just the short list. The big question you first need to find the answer to is - what is the new owner expecting from you ? If you are to basically be shop foreman it sounds like a lot of work and a bit of a learning curve but doable and a real opportunity to develop your business skills at a reasonable pace. If it is the whole banana then I am with CurleyGeorge being dropped into that kind of responsibility cold will be a challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
space hammer Posted July 23, 2011 Author Share Posted July 23, 2011 Hey you guys are on it around here! I'm in Alabama, to start. I also should have mentioned that the new owner will be doing a large part of the legwork in terms of lining up work, keeping the books and paying the bills. We have an accountant handling all of the initial business setup, and we'll be using quickbooks to track the finances. I know that that side of things trips a lot of folks up, but I'm pretty confident in the new owner, he's a fairly business savvy guy who has run his own business for 14 years. Doing the actual fab work will just be myself and the one other guy, with one other helper brought in on larger jobs. I will be responsible for keeping us in materials and supplies, as well as measuring and quoting jobs. Quoting jobs is probably the toughest thing for me. I've gotten pretty good at quoting the smaller jobs, but the larger jobs are trickier. Thanks for the replies, and please keep em coming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 In general: Measure twice cut once. If you come across an unfamiliar problem you might consider the previous owner as an interested source of information and assistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Well if you talked to someone like my oldest brother, he would say "If you want to run the business like a real business, you will dump Quickbooks." They have programs out for small business now that far and exceed what QB does. He has had clients fight him on switching, who then told him "How did I get along without this new program? This is sooo much better." My brother does business,inventory consulting for small businesses to very large corporations. I found out years later just how bad I was at estimating a job, and realized that I never charged enough. When I worked at the Jelly Belly Candy Co. our purchasing agent asked me if I could have made an item that they just bought. I looked at it, and said that I would have a hard time charging over $100,closer to $60 each. He told me that they just paid $300 each for 20 of them, and that was less than the OEM wanted. It was a very simple part to make, less than an hour each shop time, with about $2 in aluminum. Quoting has many factors to it. Search the forum for pricing your work, this was a thread that covered a lot of this aspect of business. To keep work flowing you will need to keep everyone informed before , during, and after the job. Everyone needs to know when materials will be available, consumables availability (don't want to run out of welding supplies on a weekend ,etc), How much will be needed for the job with some extras,backup plan if someone gets injured or sick,,,,, All it takes is a needed item that may cost less than a dollar to stall a project. You also need to be in the higher up's loop too. You also need to have the info passed down to you in a timely matter. If things go South, address it earlier rather than later. That way the customer can adjust their expectations, or other tradesmen on the job. Waiting can lead to disastrous results. Customers have an uncanny way to smell BS. Give it to them straight, and take the hit. If you screwed up, you screwed up, no if's, and's, or but's. Be responsible for your actions, something lacking in today's society. Under promise, and over deliver on every job, and you will have new jobs coming out your ears. Always give yourself more time than you think you need. Things always seem to happen to delay a project. You tell the customer it will be done in 1 week. If you are late, you will generate a bad feeling. If you deliver early, you will illicit a really good feeling from them. If you feel the job can be done in a week , tell them a week and a half. Then deliver it in a week if all goes right. If you get delayed, you may still hit the expected time frame, still a good thing. Once you are late,or cannot perform as expected, you are hurting your business. If you have some extra time, or feel like it, adding a little extra to the job that the customer didn't expect will boost your standing with that client. It could be something simple as adding a bow to the item as it is delivered, A thank you note, or giving them something that they wanted, but couldn't afford at the time. This will depend on how well the job went for you. Did you really over charge on the quote? If so, you may be able to add that extra which could lead to referrals down the road. Happy customers are great, bummed customers can ruin you. With the internet, bad reviews are instantaneous now. Do a Google search for your new company to see if anyone may have posted anything negative out on the net. If so, you will need to address that before it drives any potential business away. Good luck on your new endeavor, and keep us updated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Make sure you go to church on Sunday, practice good business ethics and you should do fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 What does going to church on Sunday have to do with it? We go to Church on Saturday and I feel we are doing just fine.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Who says that you have to go to church at all? For someone like me, that is not happening. The main thing is to treat your customers with the same respect that you would want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 This is a new role for you, so you need to see the world with new eyes. Take a step back and really look at everything about this, and think about every step. Is the shop staying in the same location? Who owns the building? Is it leased ,under who's name, can it be sub-leased, and how long before it runs out or has to be re-negotiated? Who pays the taxes and utilities, and out of what budget? How much of the books do you get to see? Neighbors, neighborhood, security issues you should know about? Do you have a showroom, meeting space/conference room, quiet office of your own? Do you need them? Is there surplus equipment taking up space? Do you need to upgrade anything to handle the volume? Is the traffic pattern well laid out, or does everything have to be on wheels to get anything done? Budget plenty of time and money for maintenance, both for the shop, and for the tools in it. A leaky roof can destroy a $10K welder in a weekend. A dim, dirty, disorganized shop can scare off clients, or even worse, make them think you are desperate for work and low-ball their offers. Budget time for the paperwork, emails and phone calls too, or you will find yourself putting in 40 hours in the shop, and another 40 hours in the office. Organize and label everything, and make sure there is time to put everything where it belongs at the end of the day. Constant searching for items will nibble away at your profit margin and your patience. I have gone so far as to buy color coded tackle boxes and storage bins for spare parts storage; red for Lincoln, blue for Miller, yellow for ESAB, etc. Makes it easy to tell your help what you want, and where to find it. Uncut grass and visible outside storage of stuff can get the unwanted attention of the neighbors and the authorities, and once you are on the radar, its hard to get off. A lawn service and some used shipping containers are business write-offs, and worth every penny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Get your jobs done on time, without fail, and yhou will have repeat business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 What does going to church on Sunday have to do with it? We go to Church on Saturday and I feel we are doing just fine.... LOL Now thats funny Larry! Saturday or any day is a good thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Do you have an ongoing series of small projects to fit the times between long ones? Perhaps something for his other business where it is not a time critical thing but always a nice item to have around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
space hammer Posted July 29, 2011 Author Share Posted July 29, 2011 Hey guys! Lots of good stuff here so far! Many thanks for all the input. We are going in this weekend to clean shop, organize, and kindof inventory our tools and supplies to see what we need. We already sold off a large lathe that we didn't need, and moved around some equipment while we had a forklift handy. I'm going to take some pictures of the shop this weekend to post up. Some cool tools in there, including a 55kg Anyang! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
space hammer Posted July 29, 2011 Author Share Posted July 29, 2011 Hey guys! Lots of good stuff here so far! Many thanks for all the input. We are going in this weekend to clean shop, organize, and kindof inventory our tools and supplies to see what we need. We already sold off a large lathe that we didn't need, and moved around some equipment while we had a forklift handy. I'm going to take some pictures of the shop this weekend to post up. Some cool tools in there, including a 55kg Anyang! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
space hammer Posted July 29, 2011 Author Share Posted July 29, 2011 Hey guys! Lots of good stuff here so far! Many thanks for all the input. We are going in this weekend to clean shop, organize, and kindof inventory our tools and supplies to see what we need. We already sold off a large lathe that we didn't need, and moved around some equipment while we had a forklift handy. I'm going to take some pictures of the shop this weekend to post up. Some cool tools in there, including a 55kg Anyang! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
courtiron Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 I realize this is rather after the fact, but I thought that I would tell you about my first exposure to bidding. I began work for a small ($750,000 a year) plumbing contractor a number of years ago as a field supervisor. My responsibilities were mostly administrative in nature. I made sure that the jobs had enough manpower, attended job meetings, ordered material and machinery, took out permits and attended to the daily needs of the foremen and the crews. As I progressed my boss had me start bidding small jobs. In plumbing, unlike blacksmithing, the ratio between labor and materials runs around 50-50. The first jobs you bid are scary. You will wonder what you forgot, You will forget somethings... gauranteed. Our bid sheets had some spaces that never varied. You need to factor in overhead, while out custom was not to charge up front for doing an estimate which resulted in a FIRM price, we did include the time that it took in the final price. It is part of overhead. Include applicable taxes, fees disposal charge and shop materials. Floor sweeping compound, shop rags, hand cleaner, brooms and anything else that you can figure out that will need to be replaced from wear. For example: 2 brooms per year? Take price of brooms divided by 2000 to equal hourly dollar figure to add to hourly overhead. That doesn't seem like much, but some one has to by it... it shouldn't be you. Then add everything else... It is likely that the previous owner spent time working with customers and ordering material. You will likely do the same. All the time that you spend not working on a customers' project is overhead. When I worked as a plumbing job foreman I found that the time that i had available for 'working with the tools' varied from 35 hours out of 40 to as little as 10 hours or less out of 40. There are other responsibilities that you have when you 'run' things that do not generate income for the business but still must be done. Try to break down any project into little pieces that you can visualize or time study and use them to extrapolate how much time the whole project takes. Things that you will not likely think of at first but must be included: Material handling Receiving and shipping ordering material Tracking orders and backorders (we never accepted backorders, we found they consumed way more time to track. Better to reorder somewhere else or later if possible) DO A TIME STUDY OF EACH OPERATION YOU ESTIMATED. Did I shout that loud enough? Merely taking the time to estimate an operation is a waste of time if you do not use that as a time study tool. If you did not figure enough time you need to increase that time for the next estimate. If you figured to much cut those to a more accurate number to improve you ability to get more work in the future. I use the word estimate in the sense that it is a tool that you use to arrive at a FIRM SELLING PRICE. Nothing will aggravate a customer more than being given one price, and then later being asked to pay more. Would you by a car if the salesman quoted you one price then when you came to pick it up he asked for 40% more? If you are quoting directly to the customer, you and the owner need to decide how much profit you need to make to stay open and use that to establish your markup. The estimating and costing is also overhead, but if in the years ahead you decide to strike out on your own, the figures that you create daily will always be with you. We had jobs that either the boss or I lost money on. We ate those losses and used them to improve our bidding skills. We did not want a reputation in our industry of some one whose word was worthless. paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 One thing I would do is a job discription for each player. Out line expectations and overlap so these functions are planned and not assumed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 I would suggest that before you start you get plenty of sleep and go on a holiday, cause once it all gets going you are not going to get much sleep and hey a holiday whats that? Just my thoughts Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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