"Of Shoes,and Ships,and Sealing Wax ..."

[beth]

have been awakened early by my barking dogs so i have some quiet time (one boy next to me silently reading judge dread in the eaarly hours..!) i will embrace my role as roman matron - an extrem,ely novel role!!

the Gothic Project;
-firstly i love the ambience, it is summoning/stirring up a lot of glos cath gothic feelings in me
-particularly excitable about the compoundly curved stands - and the shapes within them - fabulous! just loving these areas!!!
-the q.foil area looks very well seated amoungst the stands, and also will be further enhanced by collars.
-the design of the stands are particularly gothic in their balance to me, and i love the idea of 4,3,2,1- celestial!!
-the whole piece has a natural beauty, softness and thoughtfulness that i have come to notice and love about your work

my one and only visual concern (because your reputation as a artist/theologian entirely depends on my utmost honesty and forthright talk) is that the fly swat seems to want to tip backwards and forwards, pivoting at the sides where it meets the stand. Visually i mean - i relaise it will not actually move. something makes me want it joined to the floor also from front and back, maybe from a higher point (whoo is to know?) but it could juts be the photo and i could actually be making a problem where there really isnt one and it could muck it up totaly if you try to do as i suggest..... its just what my guts tell me about its appearance...?i have not slept very well, and i am in slightly unconcious mode - for good or for bad...

of course in reality im in no position to tell you anything about your marvelous work jake - i know the finished piece will be an in credible mixture of elements and totally unique
here are some great carpet beaters - it was not a fly swat i was thinking of!!!! - have found some and its def carpet beaters! we have a new reference point which is no bad thing ! check it out - the glorious array of shapes and subtle differences available....

[beth]

ps jake or big foot or jk or rusty - anyonne know if there is some good GLUE that would stick cast iron - someone wants me to mend cast iron sentimental car all fancy finishes on it i want nothing to do with it realy but i said i thought some kind of special glue the best, two front wheels are bust of at the axles...

[jake pogrebinsky]

Beth,thank you most kindly.You've somehow inspired that project,and now you're a GREAT help on it,at many a juncture.
You're right about the connectedness issue,it's structural as well as visual.I'll try to deal with it by means of the top brace,but may have to add detail down low as well.Thanks again.

Listen,Polyurethane of any brand should be good,it's a very forgiving glue not requiring a strict glue joint.However,if the wheels busted off right flush,and the repair area is tiny relative the fulcrum of possible forces that'll act upon it,then maybe it's better to look for some 2-part epoxy.With epoxy,you could mount up a small cone around the transition area,reinforcing it(Polyurethane,though gap-filling,only connects the parts that are there.Well,it's foamy in reaction,and that foamy slop if not cleaned up does also have strengh).
But those are the two modern glues that will work.Both will need a good degreasing of surfaces,the brake cleaner spray is my favorite as it leaves no residue,but it's some nasty stuff.Alchohol should suffice.

The carpet beaters are fabulous!Is that where the Celtic design originated from-rush weaving?:)Any of those can be done,and would look cool,in iron.Many strands of rod,just like originals.Oh,there's a ton of potential in there!

[jake pogrebinsky]

The poll is tear drop shaped and 1 3/4" long by 3/4" wide. At the back of the hatchet its 1 5/8" deep.

Bryan,i'm sorry,those measurements...Are you sure that you're not talking about the EYE of that hatchet?The poll should be a rectangle,from the back,at least...It's not like one of those "skinning"(?) jobs of GB,is it?

Well i do have some leaf spring 3/4" thick,but not sure that it's thick enough(as in the quandary above),and also it would be a bear...Mo mild that thick around,that i've come across yet,anyway.
Glad to hear that you're forging,wonderful.

[John B]

Apologies for interupting this thread, but a couple of comments.

To Jake, a great interpretation of the Cathedral theme, and well executed.

Most (not all) of the "Gothic" samples inside on church screens etc seem to be connected or joined with screws or rivets, collars can spoil the 'flow' of the perceived appearance.

As to preventing the centre swinging, one solution would be to attach the top end of the curves on the base to the top loop, this would give triangulation and secure the centre support in place,

Whatever you choose to do, I am sure you will make a first class job of it.

To Beth, broken axles on cast iron cars, drill and pin before 'glueing' (araldite or a specialist metal filler/jointing compound) will help support the break.

I will try to get a couple of pics of some Gothic church work forgings this coming weekend when we have the Forge in at Westpoint.

Looking forward to seeing the progress of this project and thread.

[jake pogrebinsky]

Thank you,John,you have a terrific store of knowledge,i really appreciate your valuable input.
I've had no idea that collaring was uncommon,now that you say that,it seems natural.
Strange,i've deviated from rivets on this particular job,i usually have a tendency to overuse them even,as i like them so much,even as a forged detail all of it's own.
I may have to think of some alternate ways,like man-up,and weld everything(there's already a weld for each linear inch of stock....
I guess my trouble is that when i weld,i like to really work the weldment,for several high-yellow heats,to allow the diffusion to thake place,as well as to mechanically both test and blend the parts joined.
In this instance,as in any other when the parts welded are complex and already formed,and cannot be hammered in all directions,and other limitations,i'm scared of making "tack" type welds,where the parts are brought together without much distortion.
I absolutely dread any of my welds coming apart later,in use by a customer...
I may think about a blind rivet-backed weld.
If you could possibly post some photos of Gothic work that would be absolutely fantastic,jist fabulous.You've great taste in ironwork,i've really admired those competition latches that you've posted in the Association thread(meant to ask you about that cross motiff,but never got around to it...).
Also,in the thread about the pot-hangers,those hooks by Chris Dwyer are absolutely wonderful,the way that the taper is long on them,and so carefully rounded...Amasing,how much a "simple" hook can be worked on,and so much can still be perfected in one...
Truly a wonderful calling,the iron forging is,quite literally Infinitely diverse!!!
Thanks again for showing all that neat stuff.

[Old N Rusty]

Jake, google AUGUSTUS PUGIN I have his book on gothic ornaments,it is full of style ideas. You might find something there.

[John B]

Thanks Jake, I feel you over estimate me, the older I get the less I know.

With regards to the Gothic collaring thing , I feel it was possibly the usual fashion trend to incorporate new things and machined screws and rivets were starting to be made more commonly available during this period, and it was the usual blacksmith rebel thing of going against the conventional 'old fashioned' joining method of collars, giving the work a more continuous flowing look. Well thats one theory.

With regards to the latch marking, I think this is the item you refer to



The general feeling is that it was a traditional mark incised by the 'smith to keep away the Devil and/or evil spirits away (in this case from entering the building), it is commonly found on many pieces of antique work (as well as curent)

I will try to get other pics of some Gothic bits for you when I can.

[bigfootnampa]

beth; This product is a type of modified epoxy that is specifically designed for the type of repair you are wanting to do. It is commonly available here in auto parts stores but I don't know what availability it may have over there. they do have a UK website though and I am linking that in the second link (the first link has a better description and technical info). http://jbweld.net/products/jbweld.php
http://www.repairproducts.co.uk/page42.htm Otherwise brazing is a common fix for cast iron parts and not too hard or expensive if you have the tools supplies and skills at hand.

[bigfootnampa]

Jake; When I look at those little horns at the tops of the foot assemblies for the candlestand they seem to want to be drawn out and twined around the upper section of the qua-trefoil. Just an idea that you can look at.

beth; One caution with the J B Weld, stick with the slow set versions, tests have shown much poorer performance for the quick (kwik) versions. This is true for all epoxies in general.

[Dillon Sculpture]

I got lost in the belly button, figured maybe I was more of the toe cheese quality

I like the supports higher like the drawing, feel its to bottom heavy, and it would be good to have the negative space around the quatrefoil, also thought it had the potential to swing? Great job on the compound curves, taint easy!

[beth]

thanks big foot john and jake for your glueing advice - like i said im loathe to have anything to do with it , the axles being small and silly and badly made, and the car being big strangely finished and of huge sentimental value ( ideal yeah?) but i know i will not be left alone till i try to help i seem to be the womans only option??? i look forward too, to your gothic photos john, and i agree with jake, your name on a thread always makes me have a look - a wealth of info and the beauty of it for me is that its in plain english john also i feel hugely embarrassed that i am never able to get to your events - its family life and three young kids - there is always something going on at weekends, specially through the summer.... at some point in the autumn i hope to be able to com edown again...

well i did get my workshop day - although part of it was spent in my own tears of frustration - the reason for which i wont bore you , but suffice to say it was a miracle i achieved anything by the time i actually got in there!!!

but i got two fire welds!! one i burned after continually trying to get the edges to weld, but it was pretty good before that and DEFINATELY welded most all over it, aand the second pretty much the same thing, i will show you and i would love to know why i cant get the edges down... also i took very miuch your advice jake and particularly in relation to the fire which i had very deep and harldy any ox going into it - the whole thing was far less frantic and much less HOT! for me and it was all quite calm! a first with trying to do this so thank you so much The more i do any of this actually the more i realise that when people talk about smacking 7 shades of s**t out of the metal, they are barking up the totally wrong tree, cos infact force is the least of what you need most times... the one i tried last time was 3/4 on an inch not an inch jake, so im not that barmy thankfully









i also tried The Jewel - looked really rubbish, but i will keep trying, i turned it into a flat flowery thing after the failure - but managed to do two before using them for something else... my attemot really was appaling - i was apalled...







here is what i made with them, a curtain pole thing that i started another day - i welded those on obviously im ashamed to say (jake you made me laugh with your welding comments before - i too am paranoid about welds, but prob with more reason than you!!)







finally to give you some context ( i like to see where people work) some shots of the filthy trip hazard area i work in when i can, and my fire - the heart of my workshop





jake - something danger said - you dont intend for that candle carpet beater bit to Actually swing do you??? i may be confused...

[jake pogrebinsky]

Thanks to all of you kind folks.Rusty,that idea was marvelous,thanks:I've googled Hugin(father AND son,somehow missed the son when reading about the ARTS&CRAFTS years back...),and spent unto the wee hours reading about Gothic architecture.
Learned that the ceiling at Glouster cathedral cloisters that so profoundly affects me is the Fan vault,that the cathedral also contains the incomparable,the unique Stellar(!)vault...By then,my normal schizophrenic sardonic laughter at myself was reaching it's highest pitch-here's a moron,in the wilds of god-knows-where,studying gothic architecture,for to turn it into the bespoke ironwork to do exactly what with?I truly am another Jude the Obscure...But thanks,i really do appreciate that.

Clay,the "horns" are scarf stubs,as that structure will have two more candle-stems welded to it.They'll be somewhat shorter,and high up braced to the central one with a weird-shaped brace,it'll clash with all else in the piece,and that'll be real gothic then-eclectic,you see!

Michael,good eye:I've failed to follow the sketch in this one,(most important)aspect.The thing is in a real danger of becoming ass-heavy,that is why i just hinted at the circularity with the "feet",instead of forging a nice fat ring for a base(as i probably shoulda done...).
See,that's the essence of the entire dilemma,right here:The torture of "traditional"construction is unbearable(imagine,with a mig&a peanut-grinder i can just go about slapping stuff anywhere's i likes,whistling as i do),yet,THAT is where IT comes from,the COOL,man,the spirit of it all...
The hand-touch is very important here,i feel.The imperfections,the inconsistencies,the sloppy fire-welds,all that combines to speak to us in our brain,that is the primal bellybutton wisdom,deep within one's reptilian brain's deepest recesses...
And you're absolutely right about it not being easy,the compounds...Lor',it ain' easy...Not with the imperfectly squared/tapered WI stock,especially.Again,here the irregularity of material combines with the math of X-Y-Z axis in a peculiar way,again,THAT's where it's all at.(IF done gracefully,which i'm already loosing control of).
As a general comment:I'd need to work in this given style for a couple of years,not even planning on keeping any results.THEN,i'd venture to attempt something like this,with a degree of competence.The iron,and this style in particular,deserves it,and it is the very least of respect that one can show it.
Instead,here i am,forced to fake it for the sake of a "product",aimed at a consumer that will be unable to even place it in history,let alone appreciate the iron for it's potential.And THAT is why more people should FORGE iron,we may be going down with a sinking ship,but at least we can go down in style,without profaning the sacred aesthetic of iron itself.
If one chooses to work with the MiG and the grinder,then one should design for it,then it's harmonious,and has just as much right to live.These are the two of many dialects of the same language.But mixing them is vulgar,as each language,be it French or Eubonics,has it's own grammar,and must conform to it,or it becomes ungrammatical, a disharmony...

[jake pogrebinsky]

Beth-you're happenin',man,you're THIS close to being just count on using welds reliably in completed work.Here's what i'd suggest correcting:

When faggot-welding,give yourself a bit more of a loop,for more flex(unless you're closing the entire loop.another good way to make a "blob" on the end,BTW).

You're having tough time blending in the edge because your scarf is too blunt-the skinny edge can be knife-edge skinny,and longer.

Now,an important aspect of the process,the SEQUENCE.Separately,the heating and the forging,Heating first:

You have more and less mass in the same joint(scarf point is skinny).Heat it mass-first,down,or facing the heat.Heat it till ALMOST there,then turn skinny part downwards.Now,watch it close,and AS soon as the sparks appear above the flames of your fire,turn off the blast.
Now,give it a count of one or two,as without the blast the temp will RISE,momentarily.NOW,tale it out and smack it.Gently,just like you say yourself.

Your fire has bounderies,from hot to cold(pile of barely burning stuff).Use that transition to keep the rest of element from overheating.So,the weld itself in the hottest spot,all else outside.Constrict the hot-spot,if you can(can you?).The hot-spot must be adjustable for different size/shape work.

You've done BEAUTIFULLY on the blob,right on!The only way that you made it a bit harder on yourself,is by drawing out the taper right away.It's easier to keep the fuller maximally short-you can always draw it out later.

Also,you've bitten off a bit more that a Cube worth of volume.It's hard to resist,but also makes it a bit harder.But,you've GOT it,right on!!!

The "rosette" that you made out of the blob is SWEET.An absolutely timeless element(why have i never tried that?!).
Combined with your wonderful,hand-worked,lovingly,obviously,tapers,it all looks KILLER,man.
I really like that,that is all that the ironwork is to me,right there.
Again,RIGHT ON!!!

[jake pogrebinsky]

P.S.Forgot about the forging part of welding sequencing:

You've heard it before,many times:the weld has 3 parts.muddle,and the two ends,one or both of which are skinny scarf-ends.

When out of the fire:

1.Smack the middle(to spew out the crap,and to bring the metal in contact with each-other).

2.Smack the skinniest end down,MAYBE even try to pat/blend it in right then.IF so,then forget about turning it,even,the anvil has by now drawn the welding heat.Flux it again,and put it back.

3.If you didn't do anything but steady smacking,you MAY be able to work the other side,as in a blow or two or three.No sense in doing more,you're loosing heat now,and may begin to OPEN the welds back up.

On the more general level:Wait till the scarf-end(down-facing at this final stage)starts sparking.Turn the blast off,reach in there without moving it out(maybe turn it facig up),and pinch-weld the whole,and especially the skinny end.Pinch the fat part,your tongs will then be hot,then pinch down the skinny edge.

It's actually extremely satusfying to do this,here,with WI,i see loquid slag run fown the tong bits when i do that :)

[jake pogrebinsky]

Beautiful shop,Beth,i'm totally convinced that the BEST sort of work is coming out of there!
Lots of great tools,really like that "ironworker",your heavy lay-out table.(I've no flat reference in my dump at all,it's a botheration).
Great forge,and i really like that heart-stencil on the hood.Soon,you'll be able to fire-weld it in iron,for a trivet or something!
Again,great looking "florettes",or whatever they're called technically.A very essence of "ironwork",those.

[K. Bryan Morgan]

Bryan,i'm sorry,those measurements...Are you sure that you're not talking about the EYE of that hatchet?The poll should be a rectangle,from the back,at least...It's not like one of those "skinning"(?) jobs of GB,is it?

Well i do have some leaf spring 3/4" thick,but not sure that it's thick enough(as in the quandary above),and also it would be a bear...Mo mild that thick around,that i've come across yet,anyway.
Glad to hear that you're forging,wonderful.

Oh bother. Ya your right. Its 7/8" thick by 1 5/8" tall

[jake pogrebinsky]

OK,Bryan,that's cool,so,roughly 1" x 2" is what they've started with,as they'd loose at LEAST a 1/16" a side to scale alone.

The height must be some metric stock that the canny Swedes use,them,that've been making iron longer than anyone(but the Chinese:)).

By method of deduction,the eye being 3/4",we have the cheek thickness,...no,we don't...as we don't know how they've slit it.

No problem!We've lots of beef to play with,almost 1/2" a side.That means that the slit will be short,and the lengh of the eye comes out of the mass of the sides of it.

And THAT,in turn,tells us that the drift must be of a shape in it's initial section fairly narrow,with flat sides to fuller the cheeks against.
Zo:The drift starts out as a chisel(to open the slit),transitions in the above shape,to fuller the sides and to draw down that bottom "ear"/langette(in an utterly useless,mechanically ,but admittedly cute way);and transitions again to the final eye shape.Possible to just make the one tool,though they use 2 or 3,i'd bet.

Nevermind,just thinking out loud,Bryan,but if you do follow it,then good,because it's just forging,same as stake-flippers,coat hooks,or any other.

[Dillon Sculpture]

I don't think your fooling anyone that your "product" is less than par, on the contrary, it is true to the heart that is what matters. I am not a purist of iron construction and will use any method it takes to allow my language to be read. I don't think any of the modern tools cause disharmony or lack of spirit, only the lack of forethought, patients and practice leads too profaning the sacred aesthetic of iron. Like you say, maybe someday WE WILL be real smiths.

I did like that you kept the circle at the bottom open, if even less of it was grounded it could lift the piece as well. Visually it looks as if it needs more at the top, but then again its good to know when enough is enough

Nice set up Beth, looks as if you have ruined a perfectly good parking garage:) My 1957 Buick special sits in the rain:(

Certainly been busy in the forge, but I really have to bust your chops about the drill on the floor?

[jake pogrebinsky]

Michael,your praise means a GREAT deal to me.You're a real pro.In ALL ways,i'd imagine,but i'm especially impressed with how you handle the spatial issues,curves/3-D compounds,that sort of stuff,i really respect that.So thank you.

And no,of course the tools in and of themselves don't mean anything,good or bad,i just use it in my pathetic attempts at explaining a point(unimaginably,literally,difficult to talk about forging,who'd ever guess?!).

I'm not a purist either.I'll try to make this same point once again:I made the cups of the candlesticks out of 1 1/4" round.I could've forged the inside cavity,but to save time and my back i drilled it on the old camelback.Then i forged on,business as usual,and any traces of machining have gone away without me even making them.

IF i was less experienced in forging,i may've been led unto temptation by the concentricity,the lovely all-around evenness of machining.Then,the candle-cups would end up different,would look odd and out of place on the background of forged stock.

In other words,one needs to know where one is going with the work,the message,just like you say.And if the final look must say "FORGED",and DOES,then it don't matter AT ALL if it was,actually,forged.

Is that again,totally pathetically confused?Maybe it's not as important as i feel it is...Very possible...

[K. Bryan Morgan]

Michael,your praise means a GREAT deal to me.You're a real pro.In ALL ways,i'd imagine,but i'm especially impressed with how you handle the spatial issues,curves/3-D compounds,that sort of stuff,i really respect that.So thank you.

And no,of course the tools in and of themselves don't mean anything,good or bad,i just use it in my pathetic attempts at explaining a point(unimaginably,literally,difficult to talk about forging,who'd ever guess?!).

I'm not a purist either.I'll try to make this same point once again:I made the cups of the candlesticks out of 1 1/4" round.I could've forged the inside cavity,but to save time and my back i drilled it on the old camelback.Then i forged on,business as usual,and any traces of machining have gone away without me even making them.

IF i was less experienced in forging,i may've been led unto temptation by the concentricity,the lovely all-around evenness of machining.Then,the candle-cups would end up different,would look odd and out of place on the background of forged stock.

In other words,one needs to know where one is going with the work,the message,just like you say.And if the final look must say "FORGED",and DOES,then it don't matter AT ALL if it was,actually,forged.

Is that again,totally pathetically confused?Maybe it's not as important as i feel it is...Very possible...

There is a section of the study of quantum mechanics that says. If you don't look at an object, it doesn't exist. In other words its the act of looking that object brings it into being. I find that mind boggling. However, if I think of it as a computer it makes perfect sense. If I am looking at a computer page. Until I to go to the page and see it. It was only in the memory of the computer. It did not exist before I Iooked at it. Its basicly the same thing. So if I extrapolate that to forging. Does that mean I just have to say its forged for it to be forged? Or, do I have to forge it? Is it in the eye of the maker or the eye of the beholder. I've seen so many things at the big box stores that seem forged. But, being a part of the forging community, I can tell it wasn't. Just made to look that way. So, to me it isn't forged even though it says on the label that it is. But, to someone not acustom to forged work, would it be forged? For them I can see that it would be. My truth and their truth would be different.

[K. Bryan Morgan]

Sorry Jake. Yes I am following what your saying about the drift/slitter.

[jake pogrebinsky]

(Michael,i forgot to say this:Though i'm sincerely thankful for your praise,i must say that about 90% of what i've been doing lately IS sub-par,in terms of quality of workmanship.It scares me,actually,how bad it is.I really want(and need)to produce the maximum variety of objects,but 1.Jumping from project to dissimilar project,and,2,not having the time to practice any of the given techniques(some of which i've never done,others-not for a long while),together-it's a KILLER,man,i'm most chagrined,and will have to sensor ruthlessly before the show...)


I'd like to belabor that same point a little more,though am growing despondent of hope of making myself understood(it don't matter anyhoo,but,still...).

I've made the other two candlesticks today.Like i said,i drilled the large cavity,leaving about 5/8" thick bottom,which i used to drive the cup into it's "saucer",by means of a right size punch.Then,i punched the rest of the hole,that i used to rivet the whole together to the stem,by tenoning it.

So,i deliberately eye-balled everything,making a few extra problems for myself(like that severely off-center hole),but gaining that irregularity that i seek especially in this project.



On the next photo is the process of indexing the parts together,using whatever means possible-temp.differential,force,cunning,whatever it takes.Spreading the fudge around,so that the irregularities don't compound each other,but are still there.


Eventually,after a few more adjustments,i peen that tenon inside the cup,Now the assembly is ready to be welded to it's stub in the base.



The reason that i've gone into the details of all this is...Well,i'll make a clean breast of it:Often,i'm sorely tempted to make a point by using an example of someone's work in the negative,as a way NOT to do something.
I'm fully cognisant of how sleazy and unethical that would be,so it makes me search,instead,of a way to exemplify it by a positive,as in how it Can,or Should(IMHO) be done.And WHY,is really what's most important.

I've argued this point in the past(unsuccessfully,as usual),but still hold on to it for myself:A client,a layman in general,can and does judge our work very cannily,without often even realising it themselves,but they do.

They know,INSTINCTIVELY,that forging is a process of mashing iron around,so to speak,back and forth,like forming a snowball,say.Well,to do that,one cannot go below a certain thickness in any one dimention,right?WE know,as smiths,that you can only forge something back in itself provided that it's thick enough.
THEY( )know it too...In the back of their,even un-,or less-informed, blacksmithing-wise,minds.

Thus,if something looks(may not even BE,but LOOKS)thin,it immediately spells "tinny",cheap,less-quality,to a regular person.
Especially against the background of more fatter,bulkier,parts.So,it's crucially important to keep the relative gauge of stock even,balanced,and as thick as possible,closest to cube or ball,vs the sheet or a flat circle.And that's why i wasted time with this sizable round-stock,vs using pipe,or rolling any sheet to come by these candle cups.
But that's only a part of my point,though i'm not sure that i've energy to keep on going(or anyone the patience for reading any MORE bs...).

Beth,please forget what i said about controlling your hot-spot.You're using coke,it'll be hard for you,and is of no consequence.If you ever use green coal,then we may discuss it,as it is a handy tool.But,not indispensible,and i'm sorry to bring in more factors and complicate things unnecessarily.Sorry about that.

(I think i may've screwed up with pictures placement)

[jake pogrebinsky]

Hi,Bryan!Seems like we were writing concurrently,but,strangely,i did express a part of my opinion on THAT VERY THING!

It is a VERY important thing,as we do forge FOR someone,just like an author writes to the reader.It would be great to hear some ideas that folks have on that.

(BTW,some stuff in box-stores IS forged,some even very obviously Hand-forged.Check out those $1,98 hooks at the hardware section in Westside Fred's,they're actually not bad at all(Indonesia,i believe)

[beth]

woah theres to much to coment on in here whilst i slept - as usual! such an interesting conversation to me!
firstly (going down the posts in sequence) jake your comment s on my feeble jewel etc are so kind and encouraging - i Wish you lived near to me and then you would be welcome to share my table(although i fear a lot of chat would go on !) isnt it fantastic!!! i spent enough time trying to manage before i had it so i have some perspective on how useful it is. its big enough that i can easily climb allover it - which i often seem to do! As for that rosette thing ( lets call it that) i only saw in on here - and it sould have been made at the end of that drawn down pole then i would be happy - instead of having to weld it on after - but i did not make a plan so ( as normal) had to bodge something ok ish after the event... hopefully this way of working will change!! i have to say im not too bothered about the welding on of bits so long as a nice transition is made, but only really if that was the plan, not because i couldnt manage it anothre way. THAT is annoying and non satisfactory. not acceptable really...

as for Goth Proj - please please dont hget rid of the irregularity - its what gives it life - i understnad what you were saying about the guage/weight differentials, it does all need to talk the same language. the fact that you not a purist is what gives and will continue to give your work its jakeness - and its humour - i think the work is an absolute sucess - i do hope my comment earlier was helpful and not seen as neg critisism - i was merely making a suggestion because i know that you do want oppinions. you seem unhappy with the work, and to me and all the guys its so fab! i can 100percent relate to what you say about your work and time to learn techniques and jumping about - but your skill levels and competance are so much more developed than mine - take heart!! i love the open base by the way and would be slightly disappointed if you changed it now.... mabe its just a shorter upright that i would have done? but i couldnt have made it at all..... also your more detailed hel with the forge weld i will use today ifi can - thank you so much

danger - i feel bad about your buick (my shop is a small cow shed on a farm) but feel content that i too have had various vehicles that would have done better under cover sat about out in the british rain, becasue i selfishly choose to faff about pretending to be a blacksmith in there.... its a constant source of frustration that we dont have enough under cover storage... but there ya go! show us a photo of your buick!!! also , yes the drill, i feel suitably told off - but i have not long ( honest) had it, got it thrown in when i bought a landrover off someone, now wondering if that was to make him feel better abou the fact that it smokes terribley pullling away in a low gear under some load..... black white and grey smoke little bit p*****d off about that .. i also have a nice leg vice on the floor (lots on the floor) which you'd all whack my backside for - i just dont want to weld it to my lovely table but its so deep to drill through - i dont want to drill it either. i should make a floor stand biut there is not enough hours in the day is there??
Bryan finally - your thoughts on quantum forgery_ i love all that - my children constantly ask me about it all, if im in the woods and nobody can see me, so i exist? i think if someone thinks something is forged, then it is. but only to a degree. they are missing out on the deeper primary reality (in another orbit or plane) and joy of it being actualy forged at time of making, rather than forged becuase they believe it at a later date. the item kind of missed its birth, its like its been adpted as a toddler and has had to forget its past as a tacked together piece of s**t and try to start living the dream of a truly forged piece. It can be done in a customers mind, but there are levels of reality...? i love this thread!