mattinker Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I earn my living in part making steel structures for television and film. I have a small metal cutting band-saw, the filings from the mild steel I cut with it seem to mee to be a good "additive" for bearings or bicycle chain Damascus steel. Recent reading has lead me to believe that surface rust shouldn't be a problem for forge forge welding. I was thinking of Mig or stick welding closed a box full of filings and bicycle chains bringing it up to welding heat and hammering it to turn it into a billet. Your thoughts would be much appreciated. Regards, Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 lIMHO It should work. Roller chain makes really cool patterns in "canned damascus" Just be sure the materials are as dry as possible and packed as well as possible to make a "solid" piece inside your box Fill the box and tap the box on your work bench to settle them then refill until no more will fit. Also, don't completely seal the box. leave a vent hole for gasses to escape just small enough that your filings don't leak out. You probably won't be able to seal it completely anyway due to heat expanding the internal gas and resulting in a pinhole at the end of your cap weld. Voila! there's you vent When forging, no flux is needed as the escaping gasses won't let any ox get in. Be sure to use a long soaking heat or the outside will be ready to weld long before the inside is ready. I'm sure others fill in what I missed Have fun and be safe :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Lots of mild + a small amount of medium or high carbon = mild steel. It will look pretty cool, just don't expect to be able to harden it. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattinker Posted May 14, 2011 Author Share Posted May 14, 2011 Lots of mild + a small amount of medium or high carbon = mild steel. It will look pretty cool, just don't expect to be able to harden it. Phil So, the ideal chain is thin bicycle or chainsaw chain! Less air spaces. Motorcycle chains have big air spaces. My motor-bike has shaft drive! So no chains even if they were good! The addition of small ball bearings could be good. I want my cake and eat it! A knife that won't hold an edge is a spatula! I have never done any forge welding, the thing I don't understand is you how get to welding heat without driving out the carbon content, thus ruining the steel. Thank you for your comment, it'll take time to get to actually doing the job, I'm particularly over worked at the moment! I'll have time to collect lots of filings! Regards, Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Ive actually done what your talking about it and it worked quite well... I have also filled a box with copper rods and bandsaw shavings to make iron/copper mokume... with that one you have to be very carful to build a real sturdy box and not hammer to hard when its really hot... it sucks when the box breaks and molten copper comes out in a pressure jet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattinker Posted May 14, 2011 Author Share Posted May 14, 2011 Ive actually done what your talking about it and it worked quite well... I have also filled a box with copper rods and bandsaw shavings to make iron/copper mokume... with that one you have to be very carful to build a real sturdy box and not hammer to hard when its really hot... it sucks when the box breaks and molten copper comes out in a pressure jet! Great to know, but, it makes me want to try mokume! As if I didn't have enough to do! Regards, Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edge9001 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 A knife that won't hold an edge is a spatula! Any knife will hold me, if the person wielding it looks like they know what they are doing...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Nothing wrong with a spatula if that is the intended result. You can also use this material for decorative items like insect wings and blade furniture. You could add some carbon bearing material to the can (charcoal dust?) mixed with the mild shavings, but that is getting into alchemy. The results would take some experimentation. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattinker Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 Nothing wrong with a spatula if that is the intended result. You can also use this material for decorative items like insect wings and blade furniture. You could add some carbon bearing material to the can (charcoal dust?) mixed with the mild shavings, but that is getting into alchemy. The results would take some experimentation. Phil I'm a little slow on the uptake, I'm only just started thinking about all this recently, I'm kicking myself as I cut quite a lot of pieces of RR track not long ago, I should have kept the fillings apart! I'm too new to start Alchemy, I need get some experience first! My "If it doesn't hold an edge it's a spatula" is about getting people to understand their kitchen knives aren't knives! It's a good definition!edge9001 "Any knife will hold me, if the person wielding it looks like they know what they are doing...lol" I've never had anybody "weilding kinves, spatules or any such like around me, so I wouldn't know how I'd react, I hope it doesn't happen to you LOL! Regards, Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 In the alchemy department: mixing the shavings from turning brake drums---a type of cast iron--- with the saw filings could result in a High C total; but you really need to work out the chemical balance to get it right between the say 20 point mild steel and the 200 point cast iron... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattinker Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 In the alchemy department: mixing the shavings from turning brake drums---a type of cast iron--- with the saw filings could result in a High C total; but you really need to work out the chemical balance to get it right between the say 20 point mild steel and the 200 point cast iron... Thank! I found a bag full of roller blade bearings that I was given not too long ago! I'll be doing some more RR track cutting soon, so maybe that and the ball bearings could work out OK! Thanks again, Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 One thing I'd add here is that surface rust can indeed be a big problem in forge welding. A good flux may dissolve the rust -- or it may not get it all. This has resulted in many, many weld imperfections over the years. Most serious pattern welders that I know of -- at least the ones who don't weld in a can -- grind their mating surfaces clean between welds, then flux them in order to (1) protect from oxidation and (2) remove any small amount of oxidation that may take place despite the flux. When you're welding in a can you have an even bigger problem, because in that case you don't use any flux. So there's nothing to dissolve the rust. If you're very lucky, the carbon source that you add to the can -- WD 40, for example -- might reduce some rust back to iron. But you'd be fooling to count on it. For the most part, people who weld in cans seem to start with very clean, rust-free surfaces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 A couple things from my bagO' tricks. The common name or should I say a common name for using filings as part of pattern welding is, "SwarfMascus." It's fun to play with for sure. One thing I like doing is cutting high nickle alloy or just nickle, say Canadian quarters and dimes for a nice high contrast additive. One that's worked nicely was a simple twist for a bit I sprinkled with nickle sawdust shen I welded it into the blade. It left some nicely vivid stars on the bit, I called it "Stary Stary Night." Rust can be a problem unless you take measures. If you're can welding a few drops of light oil in the can will do the trick. During heating the oil will superheat but not burn because there isn't any free oxy. However it does burn, guess where it gets the oxy? By reducing any rust available, that's where. The can needs to be nearly air tight, just a small weep hole in one corner, I pick a corner facing AWAY from ME. While I've never tried it nor seen the results I've talked to guys who've made billets from straight swarf. One of these days maybe eh? A bandsaw, hacksaw or file isn't the only good source, I like my drill press and lathe, the cuttings make interesting patterns and are easier to collect and sort. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 timing chain from an engine work real good to have to try the filings and the coils from the drill press. wonder how iron oxide for sand blasting would work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I've seen a swarfmascus blade at Quad-State about a dozen? years ago. Great patterning looking a lot like a wootz blade. I would not add any extra iron oxide however steel shot from shot blasting has been used successfully. A goal of mine is to get the forge extension done and move the screw press out there and get the propane welding forge built and try some weird stuff---I was given some Ni powder to play with....along with the lathe swarf and I know where to get break drum shavings... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 WD 40 is a carbon source? I did not know that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Oil is a hydro*CARBON* stuff with carbon can be an carbon source---even diamonds! (I read about experiments with diamonds in "The Cementation of Iron and Steel") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Again I rediscover why I read most forums daily..I just googled and WD40 contains >40% aliphatic hydrocarbons. Now if I can only remember that new information! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve McCarthy Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Again I rediscover why I read most forums daily..I just googled and WD40 contains >40% aliphatic hydrocarbons. Now if I can only remember that new information! I was sitting beside an "old timer" at a demo. After seeing the technique that was being demonstrated, he turned to me and said "That's probably something I should remember. But I'd have to foget something to make room" Sometimes I think my problem is that there is so little in my brain, it all just keeps bouncing around and I have trouble catching up with the pieces I'm after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Aliphatic? Are you going to make me look that up? Naw, don't bother lots of stuff stuck in my head I never looked up and probably never will. What I've come to dislike about WD-40 is it's being a closed chain hydrocarbon making it a trans dermal. It'll carry anything on your hide right through into your blood and muscle. Last summer I tried adding some Stellite powder to a billet but it didn't weld. I don't know what this stuff really is but I was hoping it was the same stuff as used in artillery pieces, high nickle alloy and tougher than 4130 Kryptonite. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Hey Frosty I still have that piece we tried that with. A small piece of it actually did weld in the fold. But just a small part. I kept it to use for a hatched or axe edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Stellite is better than half cobalt, a bunch of chromium, and a couple other odds and ends. No iron at all in the alloys I've seen. For whatever that's worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 We did get some fusion Bryan? Cool, I thought it was a total bust. I'm thinking next time we should just restrict the forge volume or put another burner to it. Thanks Matt, all I knew about stellite was it's harder than the hubs of . . . Nevermind. I don't know if this powder is the same stuff or it's just a product name. Guess I'll give it another try. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 It's a trademarked brand name, so if they're calling it Stellite I'm pretty sure it's the same stuff. There are different Stellite alloys, but they all have lots of Co and Cr. I believe Talonite is very similar (the same?) stuff made by someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Thanks for the info Matt, good info for the mental tool kit. I don't know how cobalt effects forge welding but chrome can be a pain. Good to know for sure. Thanks, Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.