dealing with an ARTIST

[ThomasPowers]

ARTIST! is a dirty word, artist is ok.


"it dont matter handle they truck with the are"

Translation? Auto complete issues?

[Spears]

My problem is with the so called 'juried' groups. I make utilitarian things. Specificaly early colonial housewares. I am not an artist by any means nor do I claim to be, I dont even claim to be a blacksmith. Just a guy who has a hobby making things out of iron. But just who are these juried folks and where do they come from?
How do you get 'juried' and what does it mean to be 'juried'.
Why does a panel of 'juried' artist have to judge my work before I can display it at certain events or even donate it to be auctined at a charity benefit?
My wife and I both have been denied entry to certain Living History events, because we were not 'juried', even though our 1814 Living History group has appeared in PBS documentaries concerning the War of 1812. (I took up iron work to support that hobby by the way)
Ok, I'm done.

I can speak about juried art exhibitions because it is something I do. I like the challenge of trying to take ribbons with my work.

First and foremost, it isn’t perfect. What the Jury is supposed to do is separate or “weed out” certain works of art that may not be suited to compare one with the other. Division of categories cannot do it all. For example: Paintings are categorized separately from things like Photography or 3D sculpture like clay modeling. The Jury decides what works get “juried” in under their categories to compete against “like” works of “end result” nature.

In a perfect world the Jury should be made up of a number of impartial thinkers having some knowledge and experience of what it takes to conjure up and produce something in an “eye-hand” craft that can be subjected to public scrutiny to answer the end question which one is better.

Now, having said all that, here is an explanation of why Blacksmithing does and doesn’t apply. First of all, Blacksmith work isn’t pondering the art world much for probably the same reasons there isn’t a large number of young folks doing it. It’s hot, hard, and takes a long time.

You can’t compare a stair railing with a sculpture someone carved out of rock. Both can be in class by themselves. Swords and knives are also in a category of their own. It doesn’t make sense to compare a fine blade to a wood carving of a horse. So the jury makes decisions like this and accepts and returns entry fees accordingly along with immediate non acceptance of certain works.

One cannot count on the people of the Jury to fairly do anything whether they have formal education in “fine art” or not. Spears.

[chyancarrek]

The sculptor I work with has been producing art since the '50s and this dead horse discussion has been chasing it's tail for as long as he can remember

He's a firm believer that if you want to own the "statement" you have to own the process - Physically bringing your message to life is a matter of letting every bit of that process run through your own hands.

That's not to say that you can do it all alone, it's tough to pour 400 pounds of molten metal without having someone else on the other end of the yoke-shank or shifting an 800 pound segment of a sculpture into place solo. You need help, that help just has to be kept in perspective by all the parties involved.

I've been working for him for 13 years and I pour the metal, weld the armatures, form the preliminary clay, form and pour the molds, load the kiln, prep the surfaces, etc, etc. When it's all said and done, I don't claim one inch of a completed piece as "my own". It's his message, it's his work - I just participated in an "act of legacy" in bringing it to life. I get no credit or mention when his work is discussed. His description of me to outsiders is "Neil is my right hand man" - thats enough for me and a distinction I can live with and am very proud of.

For myself, I differentiate the artist/craftsman thing this way - if you have something to say with your work, a message to convey, then you're an artist. If your purpose is solely to perform a task or satisfy a function (no matter how many aesthetic elements you include) then you're a craftsman . . . both have validity and being one or the other in a true sense is something to be proud of.

Your relationship with the folk who own the concept is up to you - like all relationships, if it's all one sided or unhealthy, then it will never be good and you should get out - it's up to each of us to serve it in the way that works best for us.

[Old N Rusty]

sir excuse me am getting worse after all this typing and im shwing it in in speling ans sentence constroution what i meant to say " it dont matter what handle they truck with " i ant trying t o be funny. Today, a "potential paycheck " and i had a very nice long distance telephone conversation about a wrought steel swimming pool fence for his home in Eunice La., about a days drive from Baton Rouge. The gentleman and i finally got around to costs, i of course asked him if he "thought he wanted to spend the money, that would be necessary to accomplish the job," "If you can turn me loose, i can make a raised seam copper roof seem cheap." Wrought iron is jewelry for the home, and you do know that quality will be considered long after price is forgotten. we had a nice respectfull conversation, and the e- mail now fly! I know BASS fishing and something about ironworks, "i think i set the hook" lip hook? or swallowed? we will see.

[tzonoqua]

wow, I didn't realize artist is a dirty word!! I call myself an Artist Blacksmith, seems to be more apt for what I do although just recently I was told I'm not really a blacksmith... and perhaps they're right, not that I'm bothered, I'll admit to loving my mig welder but I do my own work!

I'm thinking "Artisan" is a good term, implies craftsmanship as well as aesthetics.

I understand the rant though, I went to Art School, which are typically filled with untalented "conceptual" types...

This argument about ideas and ownership of work applies also to people who say "i built my own home" when really what they mean is they commissioned an architect to design their vision and then employed tradespeople to do the actual work for them.

[Old N Rusty]

Colleen do you work in a shop or a studio?

[ThomasPowers]

Colleen, artist is not a dirty word ARTIST is. Somebody who's ego puts the caps in the word and thereby sets themselves up on a higher plain than just us lowly folk who actually know how to do stuff.

Note that a lot of the great works of art in history are actually team efforts with the Lead artist being the big "name" but a lot of backgrounds, etc being done by their students and workers. Today we make a big thing about single authorship; but that wasn't much considered back in the renaissance times.

[jkmas]

In my line of trade / business (brick, stone mason, stone carver,32yrs) I have been accused of being an artist although I've never called my self and artist. But, I like to use the word "ARTISAN". It covers a hole lot of things and does not sound to big headed.

[Dillon Sculpture]

Colleen do you work in a shop or a studio?

I have a "SHUDIO"

[Fe-Wood]

I have a "SHUDIO"

I do too :D Depends on who is writing the check.

I call myself an artist/craftsman. I bring good line sence and incorperate as much quality as the client is willing to pay for to the work. If they are not willing to pay enough, I walk away. If I want practice, I will do it on my time on things I like to work on.....

[Ric Furrer]

well! there is some sypathy for this old "hand". how about the a****e who decided if i got a photo of his railing, installed in his house i would use the photo to sell copies! and they like it so much they want the only one! Sir i have NEVER copied a piece of work, my own, or ,anyone elses!

The right to photo the work installed is part of the contract for the job...I assume they looked at other of your work in photo form as well.

Ric

[Old N Rusty]

Sometimes i wish for an organized world, where what we do is SPELLED OUT BY CONTRACT, Then i think of that "mickey mouse" outfit where there is a kind of hush on all communication, from them, and few responses to my attempts at getting through to them. Not condusive to good performance on BOTH sides. Being a simple smith, I try to work with a simple rule; Always do what you SAY you are going to do! Never lie, NEVER!! And most important BE NICE!

[Fe-Wood]

I am just starting a new working relationship with an established artist. She designs and has the work made on a bid...Wish me luck!

[Old N Rusty]

is she cute?

[Fe-Wood]

is she cute?

Not stunning but yes....

[Old N Rusty]

I cant find the one i started earlier, so i will add a little here, to the lucky smith that is going to work with a "cute" ARTIST , marry her. a perfect combo; a head and "hands"

[ThomasPowers]

You know I have always hated that old "head and heart and hands" definition; so much so that I have created my own that is much similar but the "head and heart and hands" is an artisan and an artist is "head and heart and hands and an ego bigger than all the rest put together".

I believe my definition is just as good as the other one.

(I've had some run in with "ARTISTS" in my time...)

[ThomasPowers]

Funny I was advocating for the other side yesterday when the church council was discussing hiring an artist to do some work for the church and I was telling them that having veto rights was OK; but that you generally got better work if you didn't micromanage your artists or craftsfolk.

[gearhartironwerks]

The sculptor I work with has been producing art since the '50s and this dead horse discussion has been chasing it's tail for as long as he can remember

He's a firm believer that if you want to own the "statement" you have to own the process - Physically bringing your message to life is a matter of letting every bit of that process run through your own hands.

That's not to say that you can do it all alone, it's tough to pour 400 pounds of molten metal without having someone else on the other end of the yoke-shank or shifting an 800 pound segment of a sculpture into place solo. You need help, that help just has to be kept in perspective by all the parties involved.

I've been working for him for 13 years and I pour the metal, weld the armatures, form the preliminary clay, form and pour the molds, load the kiln, prep the surfaces, etc, etc. When it's all said and done, I don't claim one inch of a completed piece as "my own". It's his message, it's his work - I just participated in an "act of legacy" in bringing it to life. I get no credit or mention when his work is discussed. His description of me to outsiders is "Neil is my right hand man" - thats enough for me and a distinction I can live with and am very proud of.

For myself, I differentiate the artist/craftsman thing this way - if you have something to say with your work, a message to convey, then you're an artist. If your purpose is solely to perform a task or satisfy a function (no matter how many aesthetic elements you include) then you're a craftsman . . . both have validity and being one or the other in a true sense is something to be proud of.

Your relationship with the folk who own the concept is up to you - like all relationships, if it's all one sided or unhealthy, then it will never be good and you should get out - it's up to each of us to serve it in the way that works best for us.

Very well said. I applaud you. You put the relationship in perspective...

john

[chyancarrek]

Thanks John!

My time with Jim has been the kind of experience one wishes he could bestow on everyone - a combination of mentorship, apprenticeship and most importantly an abiding friendship . . . I wouldn't trade one minute of it for any other riches!
Neil

[Maillemaker]

Well, not all artists are bad....

Leonardo Da Vinci was an artist. He was also an engineer, inventor, smith, wood-wright, architect and overall genius.

I've met both the humble and understanding craftsman/woman who appreciates the work others do, and the arrogant, bull-headed ones that don't give a rat's... mule... about anything.

I guess they're kind of like lawyers, the 90% give the other 10% a bad name.

[Robakyo]

Greetings Rusty... I hope that you don't take this the wrong way, but I think that you are an Artist too! In my experience outside of Blacksmithing, I have met many "Artists" who were brilliant in concept, but not in execution. Technically, they really are "Designers". IMHO, I think that you are a true Artist. One who manipulates their materials/media to produces an objects that are useful, functional, beautiful, admired, appreciated, needed, valued, etc., are Artists.

I admit that I went to several "Art Schools" in Boston. I worked very hard at my craft. I took several semesters of Figure sculpture and Printmaking, even though my major was Illustration. However, I lacked the attitude to be an "Artist". Leonard Baskin visited our school once. He said that an artist must be a Megalomaniac in order to succeed. That statement has stuck in my head all these years. I wasn't all that impressed with his work, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What he had in abundance was EGO. That is what he seemed to be marketing.

So, I finally settled for working in a Stained Glass studio, and became a pair of hands. The owner gets all of the recognition, credit and money, even though us craftsmen actually cut the glass, fit together the windows, solder, cement, and finish them. Kinda like that Mickey Mouse outfit.

In order to succeed in Stained glass, my boss has to echo the ego of each designer he works with. That seems to be all that they respect. As unsavory as that sounds, maybe that is the game that you must play. I have respect for him because he can do the work that we do, and occasionally gets dirty too, in a pinch.

Being an Artist is a good thing. Every person here is an artist. Creating objects in metal is Art. Whether a person forges, castes, welds, mills, or cold forges, they are creating something unique and valuable. That should be respected and honored. Please, try to distinguish the difference between Artist and "Artist". Blah, blah, blah.
Sorry for the wordy post, but I'm an artist.

Robert

[Kenny O]

I am a firm believer in the DADA movement, no pun intended. Duchamp was a champ!
("The Dada goal was to destroy art by bring it out of the hands of the bourgeoisie to the banality of the real world. This piece is an example of a readymade (now known as found art) which was simply a found object taken from the real world context and pronounced art.1917")
"In December 2004, Duchamp's Fountain was voted the most influential artwork of the 20th century by 500 selected British art world professionals"

This is a juried piece

Here's a link to some entertaining art history, I thought it was relevant at this point of the conversation.


http://en.wikipedia....untain_(Duchamp)

[Dillon Sculpture]

A friend has that license plate, R.Mutt

[ThomasPowers]

You mention Da Vinci as a great artist but you don't mention if he was a decent person---what we are discussing. You can be a true renaissance man and still be a SOB.

Quite a few of the great artists of the renaissance would NOT be people you would want as neighbors or co-workers---look at Benvenuto Cellini for instance, after reading his autobiography I found myself rooting for all the people trying to kill him!

I think that to me it's a sense of arrogance "I'm an ARTIST and so better than other people"; especially when coupled with a lack of talent for anything but self aggrandizement or whose work is actually done by others who have the skills.

I think the title should only be applied by *other* people and not in their clique to boot.