Fe-Wood Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I'm making some legs for a couple tables and I started forging them yesterday. Phew! 2" round is hard on the hammer.... and me. After about 3 hours, I was toast! These need a little more upsetting. When I get all 8 done, I'll do the finishing touches.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 wow ! i hope you got PAID for all that work! I have a round table like that, and i borrowed a friends magnetic drill , found the center of the round and drilled a 3/8" hole through the table center. then i made an adjustable compass with a piece of tubing to draw circles 1" from each other all the way to the edge, then drawing a pattern of lines, to make it look like a spiders web. starting at center make marks on the layout go one mark "out" one mark "around" one mark out one mark around one out one around at this point the spiral is becoming visible keep going till you reach the edge. centerpunch the marks each or every other one as you wish. drill the marks 9/64" to fit 1/4 inch pins, deep but not all the way through what you have made is a scroll jig! you can tack weld a piece of angleiron to hold the start and with rosebud make a scroll out of two inch stock if that is what you want. i hope my explain is clear enough to understand. pax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 What size is your hammer?........Looks like maybe a 250# LG....mb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 When I had to work some 2.5" sq stock we welded a holder rod to it---a lot less trouble than tongs! (it was 1" sq stock and if it had been my shop I would have rigged up a chain to support it in front of the hammers and make it a whole lot less work!) I was making the shafts for some stake anvils---ended up about 3' long including the spike on the bottom and the tenon for the head of the anvil on the other end. Wore me out even using a big hammer, of course I was at clost to 7000' altitude too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 wow ! i hope you got PAID for all that work! I have a round table like that. pax For once- it is a paying job!! That round table is a lathe face plate- it weighs a couple hundred pound (I think). It has "T" slots in it. Not quite as nice as an acorn table but close What size is your hammer?........Looks like maybe a 250# LG....mb Its a sloppy 100 pounder. I think if I had 250 it would fling me over the top on a bad hit. :lol: When I had to work some 2.5" sq stock we welded a holder rod to it---a lot less trouble than tongs! (it was 1" sq stock and if it had been my shop I would have rigged up a chain to support it in front of the hammers and make it a whole lot less work!) I was making the shafts for some stake anvils---ended up about 3' long including the spike on the bottom and the tenon for the head of the anvil on the other end. Wore me out even using a big hammer, of course I was at close to 7000' altitude too. I've been hoping a gantry set-up would come my way- I've got the hoist... How long a 1" bar did you use? These legs start at 14.5" and finish at 30" I'm not sure how much they way but it felt like 200 pounds by the end of the day I've got 4 more legs to do today.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Big hammers are nice but, big hammers also beat you down bigger! A friend of mine has a horizontal boring machine table he did that to as well, looks great, cant wait to see yours finished! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike-hr Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Those legs look great! I've done stuff like that before, it's always a challenge keeping all the tapers consistant. I was discussing this with one of the local group elders (Garey) and he pulled a stack of sheetmetal tapers off the wall. He uses them as a guage stick, it's easier to see the thick spots after the heat. It was great to finally meet you at Weaverburg, mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fciron Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Looks like a cool project. If I'm not too late, this is exactly the kind of piece where upsetting by dropping the work on the hot end works really well. If you've got a big block or an anvil you can set on the floor it beats hammering on the end in that tall leg vise. The weight of the bar is much more than the sledge, and you can work more ergonomically. I also second the idea of welding on a porter-bar for drawing the taper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Cool stuff Fe! Nothing like a hard days work to make you sleep like a baby. Those are nice looking tapers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Porter bar eh, I been using them for decades and didn't know they had a name.......I like the fact that they can be sized to counterbalance the weight of the forging.....mb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted March 29, 2011 Author Share Posted March 29, 2011 Big hammers are nice but, big hammers also beat you down bigger! A friend of mine has a horizontal boring machine table he did that to as well, looks great, cant wait to see yours finished! Ah for a big hammer and a hoist....If you don't have an Acorn tables...."T" slot tables work great AND they can be picked up for scrap price...or less Those legs look great! I've done stuff like that before, it's always a challenge keeping all the tapers consistent. I was discussing this with one of the local group elders (Garey) and he pulled a stack of sheetmetal tapers off the wall. He uses them as a gauge stick, it's easier to see the thick spots after the heat. It was great to finally meet you at Weaverburg, mike Good Idea Mike- Weaverburg was excellent...Great to meet you too! Looks like a cool project. If I'm not too late, this is exactly the kind of piece where upsetting by dropping the work on the hot end works really well. If you've got a big block or an anvil you can set on the floor it beats hammering on the end in that tall leg vise. The weight of the bar is much more than the sledge, and you can work more ergonomically. I also second the idea of welding on a porter-bar for drawing the taper. Thanks for the suggestions. I was working out the last bit of heat but I need to do more upset. When I do the final bit, you know how I'll be doing it Cool stuff Fe! Nothing like a hard days work to make you sleep like a baby. Those are nice looking tapers. Thanks Ironstein Beer helps too :D I like the fact that they can be sized to counterbalance the weight of the forging.....mb I guess that answers my length question.... Nice to know there is a name for it..... Just wondering- what end would you weld the porter bar too? I didn't the last 4 today- first bit of Sun we've have had in a month... So I enjoyed it :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Either end.....most commonly the fat end though.....esp for tapers I also like the fact that they take the heavy squeezing of the tongs out of the process when forging heavy stuff. Looks like the project is well in hand, I'd like to see it finished.......mb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I am going to be the odd voice out here. I prefer tongs for holding heavy bar. Sometimes odd sections work better with a porter bar but heavy well fitting tongs WITH A LINK on the reins work very well. Working on the anvil I rarely use a link but heavy stuff I almost always do. The reins with a space between them give you more leverage for rotating the bar than a single piece of square or round bar does. The tongs don't have to go in the forge where the porter bar gets hot and then floppy. You don't have to cut the porter bar off and then grind the weld off to switch ends that you are going to forge. I do have to admit I bought two crates of tongs with my power hammer so I usually have a set or two for most sizes of square or round without making them, but I still think it is worth making, buying or modifying tongs to fit common large sizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Another thing that can be done is to forge the end of a bar to a "tong hold" which is a smaller size that you have tongs for. When you are done you can then cut the tong hold off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fciron Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Here is a link to the Herefordshire College of Technology, they have all of old CoSIRA blacksmithing books available for download as well as, for this conversation, Lillico's "Blacksmith Manual Illustrated". Lillico shows some porter bars with angle iron on the end that can be clamped to the work. I've made one with a T-handle and it's quite handy. Better than trying to make a giant set of tongs for a one off piece. http://www.hct.ac.uk/Downloads/craftpublications.html I also am a big fan of tong rings for anything over about 3/4" across. Blacksmithing is too much like work to wear yourself out holding the tongs closed. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGropp Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 One trick I've used for forging a bunch of heavy bars is to make a rail from the mouth of the forge to the lower die of the hammer. This can be a piece of angle, pipe or flat bar on edge, whatever you might have handy. Set up with a couple of intermediate supports and held in position with some clamps, the rail allows you to slide the bar out of the furnace and up onto the hammer die without having to lift and carry all that weight. The bar goes back to the forge for another heat along the same rail. An added bonus is that is that most of the scale is scraped off the bar while being dragged down the rail. This however only works for certain setups and types of work. Another useful trick is to make a a hook with a T handle out of 3/8 rod that enables you to pick up the hot bar at the balance point with the non- tong holding hand. This allows for much better body mechanics. A heavy ,heat resistant apron and boots with steel toes are a real good idea in this situation. The hook can stay in your hand once the piece is safely on the die or hung from the die key ,ready for the return trip to the fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 As I recall the porter bar was about a meter long and I still used gloves as the stock was at welding temp---we had an accidental weld in the forge that we had to hammer apart with a sledge so I know it was at welding temp. As I was carrying it to two different hammers I could have used a rail based chain---I ended up carrying it vertically so I didn't have the leverage working against me and I was sharing the forge/hammers and so was dodging people too! As my shop extension is based on 4 large utility poles as the uprights I have give quite a bit of thought to making swinging jib cranes to move moderate loads around. Of course not that I'm in the final phase of getting it enclosed and secure; it looks like I may have to move again to find a new job, sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 I'm making some legs for a couple tables and I started forging them yesterday. Phew! 2" round is hard on the hammer.... and me. After about 3 hours, I was toast! These need a little more upsetting. When I get all 8 done, I'll do the finishing touches.... Fe, Several things I have found useful. Keep the bar twice the length or maybe three times in this case. You would have had four bars...heat two at a time and work down the tapers. Set one away near a fan (or outside in the Winter) and keep the other on a table near the hammer. Heat the other two and do as before...comparing them to the one near the hammer for sizing. When those are done then cool the first two and flip the bar..forge as before. Repeat for the last two. no tongs and positive control via your hands....though more weight I think you may like the control. Cut the bars for upsetting (the extra steel in the middle will find a use at some point). Upset by bouncing the bar off the ground on a thick plate set on the ground for such a use. Use both hands and rotate the stock between bounces. I take a wide stance and pound more or less right in front on belt buckle bringing my hands to about head height and forcing down. You can loosen your grip a bit just before it hits to lessen the wear on your body. Be aware that on rare occasion the bar bounces higher than expected and can plonk you a good one. Reheat as needed and keep water near to cool areas as needed. Just as a reference...here is what a 265 weight hammer can do to 2 5/8 simple tool steel (W2). I have made better fitting tongs since this video. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 Thanks for all the great suggestions!!! I was off line for about a week... I finished the rest of the legs the other day. I used 1" round porter bars, forging 2 legs at a time. I pre heated everything in the forge before welding and didn't have any weld failures. I welded on about 3' of bar (what I had) to the large end, thinking that the obvious choice. The porter bars got really hot even with a wet mop sitting on them while the parts were in the fire. My client likes the roughness and irregularity of the forgings because they will be the legs for 2 huge live edge Redwood tables. The upsetting was done with the Anvil on the floor and a coke fire. I used the coke fire because I could localize the heat better... Buy the way- these legs took me about 20 min. less than the first round.... and I wasn't nearly as beat Rick- I went to a workshop in January with Toby Hickman (see video link) he was demonstrating the "hit turn" technique he uses. With practice it is really fast. Its hard to get the rhythm on my LG hammer but yours would be a dream. Again- Thanks for all the suggestions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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