will52100 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I'm trying my hand at a sword, so far the largest knife I've done was a 12" blade on a bowie. I've got the blade, a single edged falchon type, basicly an extra extra long bowie, forged, normalized and rough ground. I can bring it up to critcle and quench, not a problem. I plan on doing a clay backing, but what about tempering? It's too long for any of my ovens, I had been thinking of doing by colors and using a steel pipe in my gas forge. Ideas? BTW, the blade is 5160 from john deere load shafts. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 sounds like time ta build a temperin oven! i made one usin the guts from a toaster oven and a control from of ebay whole thing cost maybee 200 bucks and should last forever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I'd guess that you're going to end up getting the blade too hot if you try to draw temper in the gas forge. I'd recommend tempering tongs. I have better footage of the process, but this is all I have up on Youtube so far: They're just a pair of tongs with 1" square bar welded to the jaws. These act like heat reservoirs. You get them glowing a good orange, then clamp the spine of the blade you want to temper. Hold the tongs in place and watch the colors run. As the straw works its way closer to the edge, move down to the next section. Keep an eye on the area you just left, and if the colors continue to creep too far, cool that part of the edge down with a soaking wet rag. Keep going until you've covered the whole blade, re-heating the tongs as needed. The pictures in the video are a bit deceptive; it really needs to be pretty hot to efficiently transfer the heat into the blade. I'd recommend on a big 5160 blade that you draw the spine to a blue and the edge to a straw (getting it a bit brown or purple is ok, but don't go past that). I'd also draw the tip of the blade to a purple or blue. The tip is a weak point and can snap off kind of easily if it's stressed while left as hard as the rest of the edge. I've heard some folks talk about tempering by eye using a torch or tongs going too fast and leaving the core of the blade hard while the outer part has changed color, making it a lot more brittle and prone to breakage. I have to say that I haven't had any problems with this method. I think I'm going slowly enough that the heat is soaking the whole way. However, just to make sure, I have added a cycle in my kiln after differentially tempering with the tongs to make sure that it has soaked enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Preheating a blade in boiling water can speed up manual tempering as the entire thing is already up to 212 degF Remember that sword blades are usually tempered more springy than more brittle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will52100 Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 Thanks, I've got a heat treat oven, but it's only 18" deep, and an old kitchen oven I use for larger knives, and a toaster oven I use for hunter sized blades and such. I'll look at the kitchen oven, I might be able to stick the tange out the door for a decent tempering soak. The steel pipe through the forge is suposed to be an indirect heating methoud, never tried it. I have done the soft back draw with a torch, and it works pretty well if you do it 2 or 3 times, that seems to overcome any shallow tempering problems, and it helps to slowly heat the blade. I haven't tried the tempering tongs yet, but it seems a little easier to get consistant results than the torch. Good idea on the boiling water as well, you only have to go around 200-220 deg.F. to do a stress relief, though you won't realy temper at that temp. Anybody got a good idea of the temp required for 5160 in sword form? I don't make many knives out of it, I prefer 52100, but I normaly temper it at 350 and can bend a 5" blade a couple of times 90 deg. before the edge starts to crack. The next step I quess is to gather my courage and heat treat the blamed thing, it's been sitting in my shop for a couple months now waiting on me. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 the indirect method with pipe is for the hardening not tempering ... ide try the oven with tang sticking out ... ide go a little higher temper (say 450) but thats my take ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will52100 Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 Thanks, never tried the pipe methoud so wasn't sure about it. Kinda surprised it'd get get a blade to criticle. Anyway, thanks for the responces, I think I've got a heat treat plan for it now. Now if I can avoid screwing it up! Sure is a world of more dificulty between a 12" bowie and and 26" sword! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Gas forges transmit a lot of their heat by IR, so what's surprising about sticking it in a glowing piece of pipe and having it heat up---pretty much a modern variation on a muffle furnace. I like to add a bunch of powdered *real* charcoal into the pipe so that the atmosphere is quite reducing---can really cut down on the scaling during heat treat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DClaville Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 clearn it wrap it in silver foil take a bit of cash in your pocket, drive to the local pizza place and ask nicely their oven is big enough and they should be willing to give it a soak when they have the shop closed as it will be to hot when they are making pizzas in there :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will52100 Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 Thanks, will have to give the pipe a try and see if I like it for forging a welding. I like the idea of the pizza oven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshua.M Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 i use a propane plumbing torch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 i use a propane plumbing torch strange, with all the beginner questions you ask, I never knew you ever made a sword yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshua.M Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 strange, with all the beginner questions you ask, I never knew you ever made a sword yet. not quite sword it was a 20" farriers rasp tat i made into a double edged machete/short sword josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 not quite sword it was a 20" farriers rasp tat i made into a double edged machete/short sword josh got any pictures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshua.M Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 got any pictures? no i dont have a camera its not too nice anyways, it was in my "i want to make a sword" stage, but i get it now that basics come first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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