E-Bay and blacksmithing tools etc

[firebug]

I was bidding on an item I was interested in. It was a cast iron blacksmiting plate that had a blacksmithing scene on it. I will attemp to attach a photo of it. Anyway, I bidded on it and for a time was the high bidder. Eventually though I lost it. After the auction I snooped around to see who bidded on it and how many times they bidded. I discovered that only a few people had bid on it. But what was really interesting is the percentage of total times the other bidders, had bidded on items listed by XYZ( I removed the real name of the company). What this means is out of EVERY BID on EVERY item the bidder had bidded on their entire history of bidding on E-Bay. Example, lets say that an person had been buying on E-Bay for two years and had a percentage of 25% for XYZ. That means that 25% of the time, out of all of his bids, 25% of the time the bids were on items listed by XYZ. That is a lot.

So I looked at the percentages and this is what I found. 4***s had won 491 items and had place 25% of all of his bids for XYZ. Another,H***2 had won 320 items and had placed 50% of his bids for XYZ, whoa thats a high percentage. I also found that N***N had won 119 items and had place 100% of his bids with XYZ. HMMMMMM that is odd, out of all of the items listed on E-bay he/she was ONLY interested in things listed by XYZ. Also consider that you will bid multiple times on the same item, that is a lot of bidding.

What does this mean to ME, I think there are folks artificially inflating the cost of things on E-Bay by having bogus bids placed on items. I have watched things be relisted before after a very high price won the item. The story is always the sell feel through. Maybe instead, they couldn't get another sucker to outbid the bogus bid and had to eat it. Re-list it with a story and hopefully sell it next time.

Can I be wrong, YES, but many of us have noticed crazy prices on stuff on E-Bay. I am also sure that many of the prices are being paid by folks that do not know any better. In my mind though when you see the kind of percentages like stated above you have to consider that artificial bidding is possibly taking place.

The plate sold for 321.00 and is about 18" wide and 12" tall.

[Frank Turley]

Who would've thought there would exist electronic shills?

[Timothy Miller]

I would not throw out accusations like that with out solid proof that he is bidding up his own stuff. This is how the man makes his living not that I don't think its possible its just not something I think is fair to do unless you know for sure.

[jimbob]

I've seen the same thing I've also had them send me a second chance offer at my last bid. it may not be the one who listed the item but maybe one of his associates

[firebug]

I would not throw out accusations like that with out solid proof that he is bidding up his own stuff. This is how the man makes his living not that I don't think its possible its just not something I think is fair to do unless you know for sure.

That is just it, I did not say that it was happening for sure, it is my opinion that it is. I also said I could be wrong. I can assure you from what I have seen over the years and read on forums I am not the only one to think rigging is going on. I wanted to get some opinions from others on this board and see if maybe anyone else has had any personal experience with this. But after reading your post I removed the real business name and the bidders cannot be identified. Point well taken.

[firebug]

I've seen the same thing I've also had them send me a second chance offer at my last bid. it may not be the one who listed the item but maybe one of his associates

Thanks for the reply jimbob. Now that you mention it I had the EXACT same thing happen to me before I wised up. I was bidding on an anvil and lost it. I got a message from the seller that the winning bidder backed out on the sale and I could now buy it for my high bid. I passed. THAT is how they do it most of the time I bet. If the rigged bid does not elicit a higher bid then they simply contact the REAL highest bidder and sell it to them. I am glad you mentioned that, my memory is going and I am only 46.

[pkrankow]

Ebay is full of shills, and it is important to be careful about how you bid.
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/seller-shill-bidding.html

There are also programs to place"snipe" bids at the last moments to prevent the bid from being run up.

Phil

[CurlyGeorge]

I too have been out bid on ebay, only to receive a "second chance" offer at my last bid price. I too turned it down. I have dealt with Matchless Antiques and found them to be pretty straight forward and I would call them a reputable seller. I have also dealt with some that I WILL NOT EVER deal with again. My 2 cents. :D

[Lee B]

I'm sure that some sellers have a shill bidding up auctions. I discovered this several years ago. If I really want something; I won't bid untill the very end.

[arftist]

The company you mentioned has good merchandise, knows what good merchandise is, and represents it honestly. Because of this, they get repeat business from collecters. Collecters who know what they want and when they see it listed, by the company that is there, year in and year out, always consistant, always reliable, always honest, why would they take chances buying from ANYONE else? The company you listed has a great reputation with many members of this site. PLEASE do them, him and all of us a favor and edit your post and remove his companies' name from your derogatory,acusatory and insulting post. This site is about blacksmithing, not conspiracy theories. If you want to talk about shilling on E-Bay on this site, do so in a general way, with mentioning and defaming good freinds of ours.

[fciron]

This is a frequent complaint at live and electronic auctions for all types of goods. I think it's an artifact of the auction system. If the starting bid is one dollar and I tell ebay that I will go as high as $20 it only posts a bid of $1. Unless someone else is also bidding the seller will only collect my one dollar. Thus the shill is born.

I don't know about the seller in question, so I am not casting aspersions. I think the vast majority of sellers are honest and that most sales go as they ought to. I know I've bought multiple times from the same seller and that I save and watch the people who I think offer interesting goods. So repeat business is by no means shilling.

Caveat emptor!

[urnesBeast]

I once bought a novelty item, there were three separate listing for the same items ending at the same time. Oddly enough, the one I bid on was bidded up in a similar manner, by a similar shill.

I pointed this out to the eBay police. Those two accounts were closed within a few days. They police this IFF you point it out and it is gratuitous.

[bunchgrass]

I too have had similar experiences with shills and e-bay. With regard to the idea that someone makes a living selling stuff, that's true but one can continue to relist and relist until someone comes along and pays the higher price. And that's legit IF they place a RESERVE on the site. But using auto bid shills to set that RESERVE is not really an auction at all.

On the flip-side, as a bidder, we can set a max limit and use the autobid as well.

BUT there's nothing worse than some xxxxxxxx decorator buying good usable old equipment at ridicuously high prices because it looks neat in the garden or adds a rustic flavor! I wish they'd buy the Chinese garbage to put their flower pots on - not some nice old well-made and usable anvil. As my dad used to say "that's a cryin' shame."

[firebug]

The company you mentioned has good merchandise, knows what good merchandise is, and represents it honestly. Because of this, they get repeat business from collecters. Collecters who know what they want and when they see it listed, by the company that is there, year in and year out, always consistant, always reliable, always honest, why would they take chances buying from ANYONE else? The company you listed has a great reputation with many members of this site. PLEASE do them, him and all of us a favor and edit your post and remove his companies' name from your derogatory,acusatory and insulting post. This site is about blacksmithing, not conspiracy theories. If you want to talk about shilling on E-Bay on this site, do so in a general way, with mentioning and defaming good freinds of ours.

I thought I had edited it within about 5 minutes of posting it and removed all of the references to the company. I just re-read the post and realized one reference was left in. I have since removed it. But, this is my opinion of what possibly happened and I will stick by it. It is not a conspiracy theory. If you think artifical bidding does not happen on Ebay you are fooling yourself. For one person to have bid 100% of the time on more than 119 listings with the same company is almost impossible to believe. Even the one that bid 50% of the time is hard to believe but 100%, ain't happening in my opinion.

I will be staying away from bidding on anything on Ebay. I will buy something outright but will no longer bid.

[Fosterob]

I used to know some people who put items on ebay. One thing they would do is get a buddy to start the bidding to create a false sense of demand for the item. Heard that from more than one seller.
Rob

[firebug]

Thanks for you reply Rob. I truly believe that this happened, but, this is only my opinion. Like I stated, to think a bidder who has WON 119 things, knowing that the odds are that they didn't win everthing they bidded on, has bidded 100% of the time with the same seller is too hard to believe. Even if they were a collector, there must have been atleast ONE person who had something they were interested in at least ONE time.

[arftist]

If you truly think that is whats going on, by all means report it to E-bay. E-bay is a good resource, like anything, it can always use improving.

[firebug]

I plan on doing that. I have the link pulled up right now. I am getting ready to head to the woods and will do it later.

[maddog]

I agree with arftist. The evidence isn't conclusive and there are perfectly innocent explanations. I am sure there are merchants that work with shills on ebay. After all it's easy to do and the worst that can happen is you have to relist the item and pay a small fee. But any such speculation should be very discrete about identifying specific individuals.

As others have said, the way to go is to use a snipe program. This is a simple, free, web based program that I have used.

Gixen Sniper

[Winston]

I do not know of anyone who sells proffesionaly on ebay but I would say that everyone I know who has sold on ebay has done this atleast once. Including myself. I was selling something for my wife and my sister said let me bid on it. I let her. I did not even think about the ethics of it at the time. She outbid everyone and won. I had to relist and sold it for less than the max bid before my sister started. I guess I deserved that.

I have to say I believe this is a VERY common practice.

And for those who do not know, never bid prior to 10-20 seconds the auction ends. It NEVER helps to bid early. I usualy try do put my bid in with 5 seconds to go.

[KYBOY]

I dont know about this particular company, dont even know who it was but I have been in the same boat as everyone else.Bids run up and then recieve second chance offers.Once can be an honest coincidence, but two or three times rom the same seller..Then it gets fishy..
That said I still use ebay, Im just more careful now..Its too good of a resource not to use..

[firebug]

I would like to take the time to thank everyone who has replied, even the ones who disagree with me and encourage others to do so as well. Thanks for the honesty! Maybe we can learn something from this.

[bunchgrass]

Hi,

Someone mentioned reporting the shilling practice to ebay but what are they going to do about it? I'm sure they're pretty happy with how their operation has been working. Left feeling helpless.

[firebug]

Guess who I did a job for today. An E-Bay store, it was security doors. Anyway, all they do is sell things on Ebay that has been taken in at a pawn store. Two guys work full time listing items and selling them. I told them about my experience and asked if in their opinion they believe people list things and have others drive the price up. They said yes, it happens all of the time. They are in an un-marked building typing away. Things that make you go HMMMMMMM.

[RBrown]

Gota love ebay. Yes shills happen and yes more than likely most of your most successful ebay sellers use shills or have used shills. I know a few that sell on ebay and they use shills all the time. Ebay has rules but has no interest in enforcing them unless you have concrete proof. Even if you do have the proof its still a shot in the dark if they will enforce them. Not only are there shills there are allot of people that just bid up items to mess up the system. I have seen allot of items used with a winning bid much larger than what you could go down the road and buy it new for from the highest priced place you could find. Only time i buy from ebay is buy it nows and at a price plus shipping im willing to pay and if there is not at least $20 or more savings i will buy it local preferably form an independent location.