Reflections on wrought iron

[Timothy Miller]

So I got commissioned to replicate a 16th century German chandler. My customer is famous sculptor who pays a lot of attention to detail. The original piece has a lot of texture and having worked for him before I know he will want it to be as close as possible to the original. I decided to do the piece in wrought iron. I have a lot of scrap I have collected over the years. I have done a few jobs small jobs in wrought iron over the years. But never a job of this size. He wants me to make six of them. Yesterday I made the samples. I always have a hard time adjusting to the transition from mild steel. Fact it has to be worked at near welding heat or it will delaminate or crack is hard to deal with at first. But what struck me is how truly soft iron is and how easily it welds. It got me thinking. Basically you get it hot enough and it welds scarfing and flux are optional. I also noticed that I was hammering about half as hard to do the same amount of work. Forging 1" round iron with a hand hammer is a reasonable job but when in done with mild steel I think what am I crazy?. Welding bits together because its easier than forging it to shape form solid. Doing it by hand because there is no need to use the power hammer. Hot punching holes because its faster and easier than walking over to the drill press, finding the right drill bit and chucking it. Its sad I cant buy it except from England as recycled scrap. Its gone and its never coming back I know that yet you can get all of these other exotic expensive alloys.

[youngdylan]

Its sad I cant buy it except from England as recycled scrap. Its gone and its never coming back I know that yet you can get all of these other exotic expensive alloys.

re rolling (as per Chris Topp over here) sounds like a bit of a business oportunity to me if no one else is doing it.
If it's commercially viable over here then surely it would be so in a country your size.

[monstermetal]

I think the issue is a Large enough supply to re roll. Maybe We never did have the stores of iron found in Europe?

[ThomasPowers]

As a gedanken experiment---how many houses are older than 500 years in the USA that might require real wrought iron for historically accurate repairs?

The market is not that great in the USA.

There is an old grain elevator that is being dismantled and selling off it's WI

http://www.wisconsinwoodchuck.net/treasures.htm


I've been interested in real WI for a long time now and besides plate from the old water tower at the Ohio State Penitentiary they tore down I've lucked onto about 100' of both 1.25" WI and 1/2" WI---the 1.25" was mending bars after the 1906 quake here in NM and the 1/2" were swaybars from an old RR car that is now a pile of rotting wood out in the desert.

(and of course the odd wagon tyre and self smelted bloom)

[monstermetal]

On a side note Timothy. I have some 1" sq bars and some flat bar wrought. If you need material put the call out and I bet someone can come up with most of what you need

[youngdylan]

As a gedanken experiment---how many houses are older than 500 years in the USA that might require real wrought iron for historically accurate repairs?

The market is not that great in the USA.

I'm not big on the history of steel but when did the switch fron wrought to mild occur, wasn't your place producing the stuff by the cubic mile not that long ago. Wheres it all gone? We melted down so much of our gates and railings during WW2 but there is a still a fair bit to be found.

I'm kinda suprised at who does ask for it, only a week ago I got asked to tender for somewhere around 100m of pretty prestigious balustrades, gates and railings in a top end house In St Johns Wood London. The architect has specified the material as "best quality wrought iron of a fibrous nature". As far as I know it wasn't for any historical reasons but simply because the architect decided that was what they wanted. It was a bit of an eye opener when I got a quote for a few tons of 3/4 and 5/8 square .... more than bronze per ton.

[Timothy Miller]

I have enough to suit my needs for now. I was more talking about the fact that we don't have it as a regular thing that we can buy easily and how it has changed the way we work profoundly. That's what I am really interested in discussing.

[Timothy Miller]

I'm not big on the history of steel but when did the switch fron wrought to mild occur, wasn't your place producing the stuff by the cubic mile not that long ago. Wheres it all gone? We melted down so much of our gates and railings during WW2 but there is a far bit to be found.

I'm kinda suprised at who does ask for it, only a week ago I got asked to tender for somewhere around 100m of pretty prestigious balustrades, gates and railings in a top end house In St Johns Wood London. The architect has specified the material as "best quality wrought iron of a fibrous nature". As far as I know it wasn't for any historical reasons but simply because the architect decided that was what they wanted. It was a bit of an eye opener when I got a quote for a few tons of 3/4 and 5/8 square .... more than bronze per ton.

It does look a bit different than steel even when finished. There is plenty to be found if you look and don't mind a little lead paint.

[Francis Trez Cole]

every now and then there is some for sale on the abana web site. Last time I looked there were some good sizes. I like wrought better than mild steel myself you would think the metal industry would see the need an produce some they do in england. I guess we will just have to keep compeeting with aluminum.

[southernforge]

.... but when did the switch fron wrought to mild occur, ...

~mid 1970s

[ThomasPowers]

Mild steel started being important with the discovery of the Bessemer/Kelly process in the 1850's. However "Practical Blacksmithing", Richardson, written in 1889-1891 still lists several discussions on the difference in working the two materials, esp wrt forge welding IIRC.

I think that the great Depression was the major boundry for WI vs Mild Steel; though it was still spec'd for specific uses on through the 1950's. The last company I know of that was making it was the one in the UK that donated their equipment to the Blist Hill Museum where they are recycling WI scrap.

Here in the USA most folks don't know or recognize WI as different from mild steel and so when it gets scrapped it's usually gone for good.

[Dillon Sculpture]

Sounds like a killer job Tim please post some pics.

A friend and I were discussing the bundle wire (about 1/4" diam.) that they use at the steel suppliers, it is dead soft! Is this run without the carbon content? Clean out batch or what?

[Mainely,Bob]

I can tell you that wrought is far superior to mild steel in corrosion resistance for marine use.We find it up here still trying to hold rotted oak timbers and pilings together long after the wood has given up.
It also is holding up as pins for anchoring docks and floats and last over 3 times as long as rebar in the same applications.
Old surveyed boundry pins blind wedged into granite ledge are still around on tidal waterfront after 100+ years in some places.Try that with mild steel or rebar.

[monstermetal]

~mid 1970s

Um. 1975 I think is 50 years late at least?

[Timothy Miller]

Sounds like a killer job Tim please post some pics.

A friend and I were discussing the bundle wire (about 1/4" diam.) that they use at the steel suppliers, it is dead soft! Is this run without the carbon content? Clean out batch or what?

I just have samples for now. I will as it progresses.

[MattBower]

Mid-70s is when it ceased to commercially available, maybe, but it was largely replaced by mild decades earlier.

[jake pogrebinsky]

Southshoresmith,as far as getting WI everyone who responded,together,have created a very clear picture:It's around.Not as a steady supply,but certainly in sufficient batch sizes,tons,even,if really necessary.That,the batch,or the amount needed for a given project,is all that matters.That brings us to the second important fact:
There's no such creature as "WI".It's simply a collective name for structural steel of yore.Period.
It's C content can range from 0 to 2%.It's working qualities-from cold-,to hot-short.It's chem.composition from Fe to the rest of the periodic table.
Yellin specified,and went to battle for,the Triple-refined architectural...et.c.,and still was forced to experiment and come to grips with each large batch,especially when changing the supplier.That's all a given,so moving on:
You've brought up some very valid,to me-very important differences in working the WI.(Let the term imply what we all like it to imply:Low C,cold-short,fine-fibered iron,wonderously soft).
That,it's plastic qualities,and the techniques of working of the material contingent on said qualities,is what we try to fake with mild steel.Not always successfully.The look of forged WI is what we all covet,and it's a tough call.
But a very noble call nonethe less.So,good to hear that you're working on something neat of the sort,the best of luck with it,and would be great to hear the story,see the results if possible,of course.Thanks for bringing all this up.

[Mainely,Bob]

Southshoresmith,as far as getting WI everyone who responded,together,have created a very clear picture:It's around.Not as a steady supply,but certainly in sufficient batch sizes,tons,even,if really necessary.That,the batch,or the amount needed for a given project,is all that matters.That brings us to the second important fact:
There's no such creature as "WI".It's simply a collective name for structural steel of yore.Period.
It's C content can range from 0 to 2%.It's working qualities-from cold-,to hot-short.It's chem.composition from Fe to the rest of the periodic table.
Yellin specified,and went to battle for,the Triple-refined architectural...et.c.,and still was forced to experiment and come to grips with each large batch,especially when changing the supplier.That's all a given,so moving on:
You've brought up some very valid,to me-very important differences in working the WI.(Let the term imply what we all like it to imply:Low C,cold-short,fine-fibered iron,wonderously soft).
That,it's plastic qualities,and the techniques of working of the material contingent on said qualities,is what we try to fake with mild steel.Not always successfully.The look of forged WI is what we all covet,and it's a tough call.
But a very noble call nonethe less.So,good to hear that you're working on something neat of the sort,the best of luck with it,and would be great to hear the story,see the results if possible,of course.Thanks for bringing all this up.

Glad to see you back and posting Jake.
Your posts are always thought provoking and unique in their depth and scope.

[Wayne]

Have you looked at pureiron.com ? it is not wrought iron but it is lovely stuff to use, they are producing it commercially and can ship abroad.

[don't tread on me]

I don't know that I have evar seen WI before could someone post some pics of WI and mild steel side by side please.

[ThomasPowers]

Extremely low C "mild steel" is available; unfortunately usually in shapes that smiths don't use. It's used as sheet for a lot of deep draw forms and it is at a premium cost too. Most people who have tried to get a run for Smiths find it doesn't sell fast enough to make it worth while and so we're back to the scrap stream again.

[Dave Hammer]

Wrought iron, when you cut it part way through a bar, then bend it (breaking it or not), will display a fibrous appearance. Wrought iron is generally thought of as refined, or not refined. The less-refined iron has the most fiberous appearance. Highly refined wrought iron may show almost no fibers. It is said you can make low-refined wrought iron more refined by folding and forge welding it (into itself) several times, drawing the bar down each time you forge weld it.

The first picture has low refined wrought iron on the left and (I think) mild steel on the right. Mild steel, when broken, has a crystaline look. On the second picture, the wrought iron on the right is more highly refined than the wrought iron on the left.

Normally, if you have done a credible job of forging wrought iron, the fibers do not show in the final product, unless the product has be exposed to weather and has oxidized in a major way. The leaf, showing the fiberous nature, has been etched with acid (after forging).

[MattBower]

When I use wrought as furniture on a knife, I usually etch it to bring out the grain; I find it visually interesting. Polishing and etching can also help identify WI in the first place. I've found some that was fairly brittle, and when bent cold preferred to snap off fairly cleanly, rather than giving a fibrous, green stick-like break like the stuff show in Dave's pictures.

[MattBower]

There's no such creature as "WI".It's simply a collective name for structural steel of yore.Period.
It's C content can range from 0 to 2%.It's working qualities-from cold-,to hot-short.It's chem.composition from Fe to the rest of the periodic table.

Not quite true, Jake. It's absolutely true that there's tremendous variety in the composition and properties of WI; it took me several years (and playing with WI, some of which I eventually realized would get quite hard in water, even though I had read that WI was "nearly pure iron" -- what a bunch of BS) to figure this out. But there is such a thing as wrought iron -- a material that's distinguishable from steel in due to the presence of significant amounts of silica slag stringers throughout the iron (an artifact of the manufacturing process), which give it some interesting properties. (And if it's made by traditional charcoal processes it'll normally have little or none of the sulfur and manganese that are found in modern steels. Sulfur comes from coal based smelting processes, and manganese is added to neutralize the sulfur.)

[jake pogrebinsky]

Thanks,Matt,i was trying to be overly categorical,as usual.Didn't know that the Mn is added to fight the deleterious sulfur effect.I believe that it's why the Swedish-smelted iron had such a good reputation,they,longer than the industrialised England,kept using charcoal in their smelters.
But the fibrousness does also define the WI for me.It more than the other properties make it a different material to work with,in many ways.Definitely requiring a methodology of it's very own.
Sometimes after an extensive project working WI i've gone back to mild with gratitude and relief(as i by then be dreaming of it's,mild's,homogenious structure).WI can trip you up unexpectedly quite easily,is very organic in it's nature and composition .