blown or Reil style burners?

[Chris Pook]

I'm wanting to get into more furniture (dining room tables etc) and need to be able to heat up and bend larger stock.

I currently have a blown 2 burner pipe forge, and a blown industrial johnson 133 forge (haven't got it running in the new shop yet need to convert from N.G to propane)

but even with these 2 forges I still need another more flexible brick pile/clamshell style forge for bending heavy stock and for items allready bent into odd shapes that won't fit in the pipe forge. I'm thinking a 4 burner forge that can be split into 2 halves or even quarters so you can run only as many burners as you need. This is why I'm thinking of going Reil style burners so I don't need to have them all hooked up to the blower. Its either that or blower with a manifold type setup with air gates for each burner.

does anyone here have a brick pile forge like this? any tips?

[Chris Pook]

something like this one Enrique Vega has but with different burners.

Designer Furniture Sofa Table | 17.61

[Sam Salvati]

Brick pile forge?

[Chris Pook]

yep using kiln bricks, so you can adjust the height shape depth etc...here are more pictures at the bottom of this page Welcome to Hybridburners.com

there are alot of variations of them...pretty much just a forge with no fixed sides that you use the bricks for walls so you can change the shape and size of the openings as needed for the particular job.

[Marc]

Chris, this forge looks like what you're looking for:
Plans Available

Ralph Sproul sells the plans for this, called the "Vertical Sidewinder Forge". The roof is raised with a trailer jack so you can reposition the bricks as you see fit.

I've got a small forge with this concept that I've used quite successfully bending odd-shaped items. You can see the story of that one at:
Building the new forge
But it's nothing compared to Ralph's.

[frogvalley]

I am firm believer in the naturally aspirated / venturi style burners. I have two forges using shopbuilt burners. We do this commercially and find the reliability, efficiency and ease of construction to be excellent. Our primary forges are large pipe with single burners and rarely require more heat than that, allthough occasionally we do a brick pile with another burner for the odd job. I know of several other smiths who have gotten rid of their Johnson forges and converted to brick pile or pipe forges in various sizes. Mine are built from a 20lb propane cylinder and a 30lb cyl. No fancy doors for them, just solid legs that are the right height to use bricks piled up for aprons and further up to block off both ends. Tangentially mounted burners work best in my opinion. The swirling of the dragons breath is cool. The flared nozzle is of debatable use, i have one with and two without. All three work great, although the nozzle fitted one works best outside of a forge,all work fine in the forge. I strongly reccommend making a choke for the burners, at lower pressures the atmosphere is too lean and an oxidation atomsphere is created forming scale unless you choke it down-at higher pressures is a bit too rich and needs more air. All of my burners of 3/4 inch pipe with mig tips for jets.

[Chris Pook]

Chris, this forge looks like what you're looking for:
Plans Available

Ralph Sproul sells the plans for this, called the "Vertical Sidewinder Forge". The roof is raised with a trailer jack so you can reposition the bricks as you see fit.

I've got a small forge with this concept that I've used quite successfully bending odd-shaped items. You can see the story of that one at:
Building the new forge
But it's nothing compared to Ralph's.

I like Ralph's forge I saw the plans being offered when I was googling forges.
Your forge looks good to.

I'm thinking of building one close to double in size but in such a way I can use only half of it or a quarter of it if needed, maybe even make so I can move the burners to different spots, just by stuffing some kaowool in and capping unused holes.


Frog, I've been contemplating selling the johnson forge now that I don't have natural gas available. I liked using it for certian jobs were I was doing power hammer work on the ends of stock and I could load 30+ pieces at time with no worries of damaging the lining (gotta like brick for that).

Your pipe forges sound similar to mine. I think I'll go with the Reil style burners, tried finding the fittings for Zoellers sidearm burner but they aren't available around here. I'd order them but the border makes that a pain.

Anyone make a side arm burner using a tee and the straight reduction fitting? basicly a Reil style burner but with a t fitting so you can do the side arms Mig tip type holder?

[plain ol Bill]

I like blown forges. Quieter, more control, hotter, faster. I have three different forges - all blown - works for me in my shop.

[Chris Pook]

Bill do you just build the burners with plumbing fittings and pipe and hooked up a blower?

My blown burner forge is real loud. Do you have any pics of yours.

[Shane Stegmeier]

The Johnson forges are nice for feeding a power hammer if you are running NG, if you drillout the oriffices for propane they such fuel at an exhorbinent rate;-)

Bill as someone who is partially deaf I have to say... ALL gas forges are loud, I have heard legends about quite ones, but compared to coal all gassers are loud. I have both a blown mankel forge, and an asperated NC. The mankel gets hotter, and I use it more, but they are both loud. ;-)

Have you looked at T-Rex burners if I was going to cough up for burners I would get some from Rex Price at Hybredburners.com (url??;-) A couple of 1" burners should do the trick for larger stock, or the monster 1 1/2".

Have you seen Michael Porter's book on gas forge and burner design? I have wanted to build a flexable shop forge that I can run economicly;-) and get to welding heat easily, is durable and doesn't put off so much waste heat. I will likely end up making several special purpose forges, one for doing billets, one for normal production, one for larger bulky pieces.

(I run my mankel blown 2 burner horseshoers forge like a brick pile forge, you can get a suntan off of hard brick when it is up to temp... try a mix of slicon carbide kiln shelf, hard brick, soft brick and kaowool. Most people who get pretty good at building gas forges, (meaning they get good results...;-) also get pretty strong opinions about how things should be done. Go for the combination that you value most (a lot of knife guys swear by blown forges, and swear at asperated ones;-) One guy had a neat little trick run a T off the blower run one leg to the burner, run the other under the forge and smash a can so that it forms a slit and put it so it blows the dragon's breath straight up unfront of the forge, much safer to reach into the mouth of the dragon and pull stock out:-)

I'm not picky or too biased, I like what works... ;-)

[ThomasPowers]

Master Fionnbharr, IIRC you don't drill out to convert NG to propane you need to fill in---actually you silver solder over the original hole and re-drill smaller. Propane has a greater energy density and is delivered at much higher pressures and so takes a smaller orifice.

Thomas

[Marc]

The ways I've heard of to quiet burners is to make some kind of nozzle for the end, instead of the open pipe or flare. I use a style that Jymm Hoffman came up with that is basically a pipe that fits over your mixing tube. Jymm's nozzle end is flattened to a small slit and he uses a more powerful blower. I think it requires a 3400rpm blower. My blower isn't powerful enough, so my opening is maybe 1/4-in wide. It's stil noticeably quieter than a straight nozzle, but it's definitely not quiet.

A friend had a big 4-burner forge similar to Ralph's sidewinder in design. He used NG, but his nozzles were concentric pipes. That thing, with all four burners going, as very quiet. No problem having a normal conversation near it.

And lastly, there's this ceramic burner head, Iverson or something like that???, that has bunches of holes that the air/gas mix goes through. It's supposed to be real quiet.

But the point is that all these muffling inventions require a blower. You can't put anything at all in the way of the air/gas in a naturally aspirated burner. My current burner is made from a 90-deg sweep of 1-in electrical conduit and was originally naturally aspirated. It wouldn't operate properly until I removed the zinc coating from the inside. They're that picky.

[Shane Stegmeier]

Oops, my bad, sorry Thomas.
I must have assumed that it was larger when Ernie said he had to drill it out to??? (whatever size he had specified.) He did say that in normal Seattle temps that it would start to freeze up a 100# cyclinder in an hour or so;-)

[ThomasPowers]

I ran both of my propane forges Sunday giving a smithing class: one is single burner blown in a 10' pipe and the other is double small burners, aspirated in a 9" pipe forge. We ran from 9am to 12:30; took a break for lunch, then 2-6 pm.

The blown burner went through a complete propane grill tank and was switched to the back-up 40 minutes from the end of the class and the aspirated still had some gas left at the end of the class. *HOWEVER* the blown forge was running a lot hotter and had a larger interior to boot so I feel like they would have run about the same time if I tuned them to be alike.

Thomas

[pkrankow]

Anyone make a side arm burner using a tee and the straight reduction fitting? basicly a Reil style burner but with a t fitting so you can do the side arms Mig tip type holder?

I tried that for my test burner but never was able to sustain fire. I found a brass 1/2 inch NPT to 1/2 inch hose allowed the 1/8 inch brass fuel pipe to pass with no slop. I planned to solder it when adjusted, but I think my regulator was bad and have since replaced it (without retesting this design). I felt the design was complex and heavy, so I decided to take it apart and start over.

I am building three Reil style burners using a slotted pipe nipple to hold the fuel tube in place and axial chokes. My forge body will be a 16 gallon drum with 3 inches of ceramic wool insulation. I just am unsure of what size MIG contact tip to buy for 3/4 inch pipe, and what thread is on said contact tip.

I pilfered a .030 from my dad's spares for his Hobart welder, but it appears metric...

Phil

[Ken]

I Have taped them they are 1/4 28 a national fine thread
Ken

[JNewman]

I built Ralph's sidewinder forge and am very happy with it. I did double up the insulation on the roof and I used black pipe instead of copper for the gas. I also skipped the idle circuit because I never used the one I had on a previous forge. Usually when I am using a gas forge I have multiple pieces in the fire and want it running steady. Occasionally I do shut it off for a minute or two but all I have to do is turn it back on and it relights.

Much as I am happy with the forge I am thinking of converting the blowers to blown burners. I think I can get a little more heat out of them and as lately I rarely heat less than 1" stock, I want to heat things faster.

[pkrankow]

Thanks Ken. I think I need new tools again. 1/4-28 tap & matching drill bit. The thread gauge with my current set of taps has only those sizes on it.
Phil

[Frosty]

A few years ago Ralph and I were brainstorming variable volume forges. He built his and over a few builds got it well debugged. His design is good and the plans are pretty complete and easy enough to follow. The one complaint I've heard from guys who bought plans was there wasn't anything there they couldn't have figured out themselves.

And that is the truth, if you want to spend the time to figure it all out, there's a lot more there than meets the eye.

Anyway about a year ago I finally had the time to build my version of the variable volume forge and made some of the same mistakes Ralph made in his earlier versions. Mostly those are refractory choices for the sidewalls, I think he ended up going with 3,000f heavy fire brick but I don't recall. I do know light insulating firebrick, even coated liberally with ITC-100 won't survive the thermal cycling for long.

So far my lid is holding up well but I expect it to fail sooner or later as well. The floor is holding up just fine, it's made from hard 3,000f split fire brick over 2,500f insulating castable refractory and is liberally coated with ITC-100.

Another thing I did differently is use 4 ea. 3/4" naturally aspirated "T" (my design) burners rather than 2 ea. 1" Sidearm burners like Ralph did. Most of the time I only need a small chamber, usually under 300 cu/in so a 1" burner is WAY more than necessary and wasteful of fuel.

The on really noticeable thing is I used a scissor jack rather than a trailer jack for the simple reason I salvaged several from the dumpster at work some years ago and why buy a trailer jack when I already had something that'd work.

The attached pics are right after I painted it better than a year ago and it isn't quite that clean and pretty now.

A couple other things, the stock supports are on telescoping sq. tubing and can be drawn out about 14" to support long stock. The tong rack under the stock support are also on telescoping sq tubing and can be turned over to provide additional stock support for another 12" or so. There is another support and tong rack on the opposite side for either supporting really long stock or another smith in a separate forge.

The four burners are manifolded from a common supply line and are isolated by 1/4 turn ball valves.

It's 18" sq. divided into four quarters with a burner to each. Each quarter is approximately 300 cu/in when the thickness of the brick sidewall is accounted for so achieving welding heat is nearly effortless.

The lid is entirely self supporting so a person doesn't need sidewalls at all if s/he wanted to heat a piece of plate for instance or a large scroll, etc.

So far since I built this forge I haven't needed to build a brick pile nor have I lit my old pipe forge.

Frosty

[pkrankow]

... 3/4" naturally aspirated "T" (my design) burners ... Most of the time I only need a small chamber, usually under 300 cu/in so a 1" burner is WAY more than necessary and wasteful of fuel.
Frosty

Frosty,
So your T's are 3/4 inch and the pipe is 3/4 inch? About how long is the final piece of pipe? Does the length of pipe need to be tuned? Using the 8 diameters guide makes the pipe about 6 inches long...Does it work well with a longer pipe? Should I start with an 8 inch pipe and cut it down till it works best?
What size is your orifice? Are you using MIG contact tips (your picture seems to indicate so)?
Would using a black iron pipe cross and a plug work easier for someone of limited machining capability? There are some brass pipe-to-hose nipples that hold a piece of 1/8 inch brass pipe near perfectly, allowing for a slip fit. A compression clamp (U-bolt) similar in function to an exhaust clamp would lock the pipe solid in place after adjusting, since soldering is not recommended, or rather, strongly discouraged in this system.
I understand that you use a lamp tube to pass through the wall of the T. Using a tap & die set is there a better way, or is the adjustment in this part of the system that important? Do you need to tune the depth of the fuel nozzle in the T, or is it pretty darn good all the way back?
Do you use a choke? If so, what type of choke do you use?
Have I forgotten any questions?

You seem to be a respected and knowledgeable person on this forum, but when talking about your own designs you just post tantalizing tidbits and pictures, without clear specifics(yes I know my system will vary from yours or anyone else). I have read many of your posts about this T burner, and I feel I am resorting to pumping you hard for information.

You and several others seem to feel that the linear Reil burner, while very effective, has stability problems when used in an outdoor environment due to cross drafts. At this point in my design I would rather select a better way than waste the pieces I already have. I intend to use my (not yet built) forge outside or at least in open air, such as the open garage door.

Thank you for your time and effort.
Phil Edited July 5, 2009 by pkrankow

[Frosty]

If you multiply 3/4" x 8 you get 6" and x 9 you get 6.75 so following the basic 8-9 x the throat diameter ratio a 3/4" burner tube should be between 6 and 6.75" long from the throat and the outlet. And yes, making it much longer or shorter and it will inhibit proper induction, 5" or 8" long definitely so.

There are lots of ways ways to make up a mig tip to the fuel supply. I stopped using lamp rod when I discovered the 1/8" MPT to 1/4" compression fittings work better for me. Mike Porter uses soldered joints because he didn't ask me before he wrote his book and admits he'd have done it differently had he realized what a hassle soldered joints are.

Yes, I use mig contact tips. 0.035 in my 3/4" burners and 0.045 in my 1" burners.

I didn't have a lot of luck getting burners made with a cross tuned so I went back to using "Ts". I use 1"x3/4" for the 3/4" burners and 1 1/4" x 1" for the 1" burners. to ensure a slightly lean mix into the forge. I didn't try very hard to get the crosses to work so they may with just one more try, I gave it up though.

If I want a rich flame I choke with a little bit of duct tape over the lower part of the intakes on each side to maintain a balanced intake flow. I generally run them slightly lean to minimize CO (Carbon monOxide) production for general forging and make them slightly safer. Tuning them to run slightly rich, carburinzing would be easy enough, just don't trim the mig tips quite as much, but more dangerous due to increased CO production.

No, I don't lay out specific dimensions, parts and pieces for a couple reasons: There are variations in plumbing parts, available fittings, fit and finish even in the same parts bin, let alone around the world so specifics WILL vary. I also feel a person should be able to adjust to local variables in their own burners and local conditions. Lastly if a person is having trouble tuning you can ask me and I'll be happy to help.

I've changed how I build these things virtually every time I've built one slowly refining the things. As said I no longer use lamp rod, the 1/8" MPT to 1/4" compression fittings work much better in my experience. I've found they get the mig tip close enough to tune. And trimming it in gradual increments to around 5/8" long tunes induction (air intake) well enough. I trim the tips by chucking it in my drill motor running in reverse and using my Dremel and a composition cut off blade.

If you don't have a lathe make a "V" block jig (attached pic) and use your drill press. If you don't have a drill press practice until you can hand drill the hole aligned down the tube by eye ACCURATELY.

Mounting the burner in your forge is simply a matter of aiming the way you want in the forge. Tangentially if you want to induce a vortex in the chamber or perpendicularly if not. It isn't really as important as some folk think for general smithing.

I mount mine by screwing the tube into thread protectors, similar to couplers but usually free from the supplier and threaded on only one end and welding sheet steel "washer" like disks to support them on top of the fire brick lid of my variable volume forge.

The thread protectors or pipe coupler if you have to buy from a big box store or aren't good at as sweet talking the plumbing supply store folk will act like a low end flare but is mostly a consumable outlet because eventually the flame will burn up any tube or flare you put on the burner.

I don't use my burners outside the forge because I have a good torch and heater tip so I simply tune the burners to operate properly inside the forge.

Yes, linear type burners like Ron's or Jay's are more sensitive to conditions like breezes, back pressure and construction skills than are ejector type burners. It's not a feeling on my part, it's the physics of the devices.

Frosty

Edited July 4, 2009 by Frosty

[pkrankow]

I like how the compression fitting eliminates the need for tapping for the contact tip. Or does it? In a different thread you posted today it sounds like you just use tap the compression fitting for the contact tip and throw out the rest of the parts to it.
I keep reading about people worried about the compression fitting failing...I've never seen a fitting fail on a _water_ system except when it was messed with, or right after installation. On gas systems do I want to limit my use of compression fittings to the ABSOLUTE minimal necessary? I intended to plumb from my manifold to the burners with non-rigid copper and compressions fittings, one at the manifold and one at the burner. Would I be better off to use brass or steel rigid pipe and build my manifold mount after I build everything else? Would using a double flare connector (like on brake lines) be significantly better vs compression (or worse than rigid)?
I did pick up a HF drill press, so I should be able to drill through the "bottom" of the T. Center punching first is a no-brainer? Do you pilot drill with a smallish diameter (say 1/4 inch) drill first then finish your drilling or go all at once for the measured final size based on your fittings?
Sounds like the crosses are more complexity then they may be worth.
Would mounting the burner with a no-weld device similar to Zoeller's be equally effective, or should I really pack up my pieces and head to Dad's to weld them up? Is your method just more cost effective or are there other benefits? The welder is on the wish list...but may not arrive for a year or two.
I must also remember to open "calculator" and double check my mental math.
I intend to use a 16 gallon drum with 3 inches of insulation for my forge. I could make it 24 inches long, but do not think I can get welding temperature from only 3 burners. I was thinking 16-18 inches long, then I will have enough insulation to build doors. (from 10 running feet of 24 inch width) I am interested in decorative items including gates, scroll work, and hinges, but want to try Damascus (and possibly wootz).
Would "squishing" the drum by 2 inches as a means of reducing my total volume and increasing floor area be a good idea? Volume per inch is reduced from 50 cu inch per inch length to about 35 cu inch per inch length. That would make the outside 12 tall and 15 3/4 wide. The inside would be 6 tall and 9 3/4 wide instead of 8 inches round (before installing the shelf). Total volume at 18 inches long would be 900 cu inch for round and 630 cu inch for squished elliptical.
Installing the burners to heat left of center, mounted at about 2 o'clock seems to be considered very nice by most people. Tangential entry for a forge seems to be much more controversial, but seems preferred for a foundry.
If you had a 68# steel anvil (no make on it, actual weight) with the heal broken off at the hardy and pritchel holes, had a flat top, level horn and badly chipped edges, would you A) attempt to repair the anvil, replace the anvil ASAP, or C) use the anvil as such and find an alternative for the hardy and pritchel. (yes I paid $50 for it at a flea market, should have tried to talk him down further, was marked at $70)
Lastly I apologize for taking this thread somewhere I think it was not going. My forge design is really not taking Db levels into account.
Phil

Edited July 5, 2009 by pkrankow

[Frosty]

Okay, I mis-spoke. I screw the 1/8" MPT - 1/4" compression fitting in from the outside and tap the inside of the 1/8" MPT end. I use 1/4" copper tubing to make up to the manifold. Sorry about the brain fart.

The only time I've had trouble with a properly installed compression fitting has been the result of messing with them afterwords. In the burner application they're strictly low psi and open to the air in plain view. I one springs a leak it'll be obvious shortly so a person can just shut the gas off and replace it. No significant hazard or problem provided a person doesn't walk away from a running forge for a while. I do step away to do other things while something is heating but I never go out of earshot and never for long.

What I've found is the simpler you keep these things the better. If you want a flat floor in your forge use some split brick. I think making more burners is a lot easier than trying to uniformly flatten a barrel, pipe, etc. 3 burners should be fine in 18-24" forge maybe need a 4th around 24".

If you really want to customize your forge you should consider using stove pipe, SS being preferable for a couple reasons. The stuff is off the shelf, can be worked with nothing more than common hand tools, can be made almost any reasonable (heck unreasonable) diameter by snapping sections together at the seams. And so on. It'd be WAY esier than trying to uniformly flatten pipe.

Most guys seem to think 3" of Kaowool, etc. is past the point of diminishing returns, however it can't hurt. I don't think.

No weld device? The only welding I did on mine is the sheet metal washer I use for a mount instead of a bracket. That's a personal choice. Heck use muffler clamps and pop rivets or baling wire, it's a low stress mount and you can make something nicer later if you want.

I'd probably use the anvil as is and keep looking. Heck, I'm always looking and I have a couple now.

Frosty

[pkrankow]

I'll keep the stove pipe idea in mind. Cutting with snips and fastening with pop rivets have an appeal (especially since I have those tools), however the drum is free if I can ever get it from my brother. He throws one out every week or so at his oil change shop, but that is a 2 hour drive away from me. I hope one or two show up when he visits next week. (Maybe I could ask at a local shop if they throw the same drum out too.)
Part of the reason for 3 inch of insulation is to get an 8 inch chamber. A 10 inch chamber requires over 4 burners for 18 inch at 350 cu in per burner. An even smaller chamber may be all I need, but I have been basing my design on getting a 16 gallon drum. Anvilfire offers a price break at 10 ft of insulation making the 3rd inch effectively free. I have not found a better price.
I built 5 burners, but only 4 are worth anything as the first had a BIG problem with ugly. Ugly threads, ugly off center hole, ugly torn out brass fitting when it sucked onto the drill bit...just plain UGLY. I finished building it to see what problems I would encounter before building another.
I was thinking about using #4 for out of the forge spot heating on a fixed, but movable bracket, but the heating off the burner I tested was ...very slow... in open air, running rich, on 1/2 inch square stock. I may have a spare burner instead.
I'm not yet ready to buy an oxy/fuel torch.
Thank you for all the help.
Phil