Hard facing an old anvil.. sugestions ??

[Norseman C.B.]

I was given an anvil by a nice old pal, A 75 pounder, it was worn to a deeply cupped shape on the face. I milled it flat only to find that the origional hard face was now on the thin side subject to denting by a missed blow. I was considering using wear hardening stainless rod for buildup and laying on a stoody hardfacing layer like I used to to do on rotary hog hammers,(After a good pre-heat of course..) the bulk of the anvil seems to be a casting, not real hard or too soft, and not an identifying mark on it. The size of it is perfect for the size restraints in my shop, was perfectly priced, and worth fixing to me... B)

[pkrankow]

some reading
Phil

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Yeah, way back when, I'da probably done the same thing. Later learned why experienced smiths often refer to that cupped area as the "sweet spot". It's what I learned after I knew it all that really counts.

Welding on the now thin face risks separating it from the body. I'd say just use it. Dings don't matter. Or learn to massage them back. The metal hasn't gone anywhere, it's just pushed up a "rim" around the crater. Don't wait til the rim gets worn off, you can pound the rim back down and pretty much "erase" the ding.

[ThomasPowers]

What's done is done. He knows he did wrong and now wants to spend the money and time to dig himself out of the hole he made.

So if you hunt down Rob Gunter's anvil repair instructions---posted several places on the net---I know that they work well for a traditionally made anvil as a friend of mine did the same thing and after a decade or two of kicking himself, took his anvil to an anvil repair meeting of the local ABANA affiliate and had *5* hours of welding and grinding done on it to get it back to good using state. Of course it was bigger than your cute little one.

Note that if the body is cast iron and not cast steel (you didn't say and both have been used) there is a bit more of a risk but even more of a need for a good hard face.

Most hardfacing rod is NOT a good match for an anvil face. I strongly suggest you go with what Rob uses!

There are ways of making a good guess as to the maker of it if we can get good pictures of all sides including the base.

[bajajoaquin]

Most hardfacing rod is NOT a good match for an anvil face. I strongly suggest you go with what Rob uses!

Can you please elaborate? Is it the specific alloy, or the hardness it achieves? I.e. he's recommending Stoody 2110, which has an as-welded hardness of 50 to 52 Rockwell C; if I use something with the same hardness is the alloy an issue?

[pkrankow]

another thought



Lastly, if this is a solid cast steel anvil, re heat treating may be the best answer.

Phil

[Dodge]

What's done is done. He knows he did wrong and now wants to spend the money and time to dig himself out of the hole he made.

So if you hunt down Rob Gunter's anvil repair instructions---posted several places on the net---I know that they work well for a traditionally made anvil as a friend of mine did the same thing and after a decade or two of kicking himself, took his anvil to an anvil repair meeting of the local ABANA affiliate and had *5* hours of welding and grinding done on it to get it back to good using state. Of course it was bigger than your cute little one.

Note that if the body is cast iron and not cast steel (you didn't say and both have been used) there is a bit more of a risk but even more of a need for a good hard face.

Most hardfacing rod is NOT a good match for an anvil face. I strongly suggest you go with what Rob uses!

There are ways of making a good guess as to the maker of it if we can get good pictures of all sides including the base.

Here's Robb Gunter and Karl Schuler's repair processes: Anvil Restoration

[pkrankow]

Can you please elaborate? Is it the specific alloy, or the hardness it achieves? I.e. he's recommending Stoody 2110, which has an as-welded hardness of 50 to 52 Rockwell C; if I use something with the same hardness is the alloy an issue?

Some hardfacing materials craze, forming small cracks and fissures, which is perfectly acceptable, and even desirable for some applications, but unacceptable for an anvil.

Color match between the base metal of the anvil and the fill metal of the hardface is very desirable for an anvil that may be resold later in its life.

Phil

[ThomasPowers]

Thanks Phil! Some hardfacing rods are much harder than needed too. You already have a lesson in the perils of "if a little is good a lot must be better" in cleaning the face of an anvil.

[jmeineke]

Some hardfacing materials craze, forming small cracks and fissures, which is perfectly acceptable, and even desirable for some applications, but unacceptable for an anvil.
Phil

Just curious - why are small cracks / fissures unacceptable for anvils?

[pkrankow]

Just curious - why are small cracks / fissures unacceptable for anvils?

They can mar the work surface of your part.
They can allow portions of the anvil surface to break free under impact, possibly with a lot of energy.
Looks bad.
Anybody got anything else?
Phil

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

What's done is done. He knows he did wrong and now wants to spend the money and time to dig himself out of the hole he made.

So if you hunt down Rob Gunter's anvil repair instructions---posted several places on the net---I know that they work well for a traditionally made anvil as a friend of mine did the same thing and after a decade or two of kicking himself, took his anvil to an anvil repair meeting of the local ABANA affiliate and had *5* hours of welding and grinding done on it to get it back to good using state. Of course it was bigger than your cute little one.

Note that if the body is cast iron and not cast steel (you didn't say and both have been used) there is a bit more of a risk but even more of a need for a good hard face.

Most hardfacing rod is NOT a good match for an anvil face. I strongly suggest you go with what Rob uses!

There are ways of making a good guess as to the maker of it if we can get good pictures of all sides including the base.

I agree "what's done is done", but there lots of other folks who read here and It's good for them to take some lessons away before doing something irreversible. And it seems his reason for welding is because it now gets "dinged". He might not be any happier with a welded face.

Hard to remember sometimes that you're not just talking to the original poster.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

They can mar the work surface of your part.
They can allow portions of the anvil surface to break free under impact, possibly with a lot of energy.
Looks bad.
Anybody got anything else?
Phil

You done good Phil. Also, when you forge on them it drives the hot metal into them and wears them bigger and wedges them open.

[youngdylan]

They can mar the work surface of your part.
They can allow portions of the anvil surface to break free under impact, possibly with a lot of energy.
Looks bad.
Anybody got anything else?
Phil

In the early days, before I "knew" what I was doing (very little change there then) I hard faced some mild steel dies I made for my Kinyon. The rods were marked HF-425 if that means anything to anyone. It was super hard stuff, barely grindable. The face is full of thoses marks. I thought I'd dropped a b******k welding them. I did use them for a a fair while (out of ignorance of the danger) and they stood up to a remarkable amount of abuse all things considered. I now make all my dies from 4340.

The "micro texture" they impart on to the work is just wonderful in it's own right. I often texture copper sheet using these dies, it's such a subtle but beautiful effect.

http://www.verdigrismetals.co.uk/assorted/sidegarth%20textured%20copper%20letter%20box.htm

I wouldn't recomend them for serious forging but for texturing with light blows ....

If you're curious you can see my thoughts on repairing anvils at

http://blacksmith.org/forums/threads/405-What-s-so-special-about-anvils-anyway?p=1595#post1595

[jmeineke]

You done good Phil. Also, when you forge on them it drives the hot metal into them and wears them bigger and wedges them open.

The reason I asked is on the one I did for my dad I ended up with some surface checking (which the rod manufacturer said was normal) - you couldn't really even see them once you wiped the surface off - it was almost like they only showed up when a light coat of dust was on the face if that makes any sense. I don't know if that's what you are all talking about or not.

If so, then all this time I thought it was acceptable, even normal, for that to happen and that it wouldn't hurt anything and that I did a good job on my repair.... It sounds to me like I only think I repaired it and did a good job.... Great....

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

The reason I asked is on the one I did for my dad I ended up with some surface checking (which the rod manufacturer said was normal) - you couldn't really even see them once you wiped the surface off - it was almost like they only showed up when a light coat of dust was on the face if that makes any sense. I don't know if that's what you are all talking about or not.

If so, then all this time I thought it was acceptable, even normal, for that to happen and that it wouldn't hurt anything and that I did a good job on my repair.... It sounds to me like I only think I repaired it and did a good job.... Great....

You'd probably have to do a LOT of pounding on it before it mattered.

[Fosterob]

For those that do not know hardfacing comes in all different recipes. The ones that crack I think are more for abrasion like on earthmoving or mining equipment that rubs in the dirt. These are difficult if not impossible to grind. I would not recommend these unles you wanted to use your anvil as a plow and drag some fields with it. The other extreme is impact only with no abrasion resistance which is what we want to hammer on. We use hammers, not dragging through dirt. The impact hardfacing rod grinds very well. There are all sorts of combinations of impact and abrasion. Some hardfacing rod is forgeable and some is not. I hope this is not to confusing.
Rob

[jmeineke]

I think the stuff I used must have been somewhere in between wear and hardfacing. I used 7018 to buildup and then capped with the HF. It was labeled "hardfacing," but I didn't have any problems grinding it. Rebound was over 80%. It will end up back in my hands when my dad passes on (hopefully no time soon). Until then, I'm sure it will see only light use.

I wonder how well McKay Hardalloy 61 would work. It has an as-welded HRC of 57 to 63 at 2 layers on 1020 (1 layer 53-55 HRC). Product literature says it doesn't crack. http://www.controlle...rdalloy_61.PDF. Seems like it would be decent, but what do I know.

[Mainely,Bob]

When you talk about hardfacing rod it`s important to remember what was posted above by Fosterob,they are NOT all equal.It`s kind of like saying steel is steel.You really do need to do the research and find what is applicable and what is not,just like steel.
As a related but side note,my friend brought me some carbide for use in some stone carving tools he wanted made.I made up the tools,prepared the pockets to receive the inserts and brazed the carbides into place as he had asked.When put to use on granite the carbide promptly shattered.He had used carbide suitable for wear resistance(machinist surplus) and not something that had impact resistance.I did what he had asked but he had set himself up for failure.
The tools were repaired using rods meant for refacing jackhammer bits and they got him thru the job and made him enough money to buy the real deal thru Trow and Holden,a stone tool supplier in Vermont.T&H was also where he got his education regarding the different applications for carbide.

[Norseman C.B.]

What's done is done. He knows he did wrong and now wants to spend the money and time to dig himself out of the hole he made.

So if you hunt down Rob Gunter's anvil repair instructions---posted several places on the net---I know that they work well for a traditionally made anvil as a friend of mine did the same thing and after a decade or two of kicking himself, took his anvil to an anvil repair meeting of the local ABANA affiliate and had *5* hours of welding and grinding done on it to get it back to good using state. Of course it was bigger than your cute little one.

Note that if the body is cast iron and not cast steel (you didn't say and both have been used) there is a bit more of a risk but even more of a need for a good hard face.

Most hardfacing rod is NOT a good match for an anvil face. I strongly suggest you go with what Rob uses!

There are ways of making a good guess as to the maker of it if we can get good pictures of all sides including the base.

Thanks Thomas and everyone else for your input, Yes I am digging out If you dont screw up once in a while youre not doing much (So Ive been told). Will do some spark testing and filing to deterrmine the type of casting Im dealing with,It looks like it's been built up before (BADLY). I have nicad, WH stainless,60 and,70 series as well as the stoody impact rod,so I hope got the bases mostly covered. The recipe I used on the rotary hammers worked almost too good as the time between redos tripled.Happy customer poorer me...Oh well, rather have happy customers..I like Robs method so I'll check the price on those rods and do what I can with what I can...Clifford B)

[ironwolfforgeca]

Noresman STEVE'S Welding here one of the best repairs for an anvil I know of,
is the one Rod Gunter has said.I have repaid over 35 + anvils to date with 1105 rod and all are still in good shape even the 2 in the high school metal shop that's being use by kid that have no Idea how to use an anvil right, THAT SAID the story. I have 2 on the welding table to do now
by the way where you at ? northern Ca here Good Luck

[pkrankow]

Since I have a memory for numbers like a rusty sieve, I googled Stoody 1105 and found this
http://www.celticknot.com/the-elektric-anvil/the-blacksmiths-compendium/41-about-stoody-rods.html
This may answer RefinedByFire's earlier question.
Phil

[jmeineke]

Noresman STEVE'S Welding here one of the best repairs for an anvil I know of,
is the one Rod Gunter has said.I have repaid over 35 + anvils to date with 1105 rod and all are still in good shape even the 2 in the high school metal shop that's being use by kid that have no Idea how to use an anvil right, THAT SAID the story. I have 2 on the welding table to do now
by the way where you at ? northern Ca here Good Luck

Have you (or anyone, for that matter) ever done a rebound test on any of the repairs you've done? It's obvious that the Gunter method is the de-facto repair method for anvils (and I'm not disagreeing with that), but I haven't been able to find anyone reporting back on rebound tests.

I'd love to see where it falls on the list using the 10" drop method described here: http://www.anvilfire...0anvilfire.com.

[Mainely,Bob]

What are folk`s thoughts on bolting rather than welding a tool steel face onto a shelled out anvil body?
For folks who have already taken a leap in the wrong direction and bought an anvil with only a scarcely attached half face or no face at all and who also have little to no welding experience this may be an option if it`s a viable technique.
What are any drawbacks you see?

[pkrankow]

http://www.iforgeiro...t-anvil-repair/
post 1 and 11 have rebound information, but the rod was Stoody 2110
Phil