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Hard facing an old anvil.. sugestions ??


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http://www.iforgeiro...t-anvil-repair/
post 1 and 11 have rebound information, but the rod was Stoody 2110
Phil

Thanks, Phil - that's very interesting. So basically work-hardened 2110 gives an 80% rebound. I wonder what a cap with 1105 would produce? Anyone have info on that?

Also, that's some interesting info in that other link you posted (namely http://www.celtickno...ody-rods.html). I wonder if 1102 would be an even better choice on top of 2110 since it has similar properties to 1105 but is even harder?
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What are folk`s thoughts on bolting rather than welding a tool steel face onto a shelled out anvil body?
For folks who have already taken a leap in the wrong direction and bought an anvil with only a scarcely attached half face or no face at all and who also have little to no welding experience this may be an option if it`s a viable technique.
What are any drawbacks you see?

For what their worth, here are my thoughts:

From what I recall reading (maybe I just dreamed it? blink.gif), bolted on will never quite be the same as a solid mass and there will be energy loss between the plates when hammering. But then again, if you don't have a welder or no exp., it may be the only way to go. Maybe done right the difference may not be all that big a deal.

If I were going to do a bolt on, I'd pay a visit to a machine shop to have the anvil face milled flat before I did anything. Any unevenness, dishes, etc., I imagine would make a big difference in energy transfer from hammer blows. Also, I'd make sure the tool plate is good and flat too. Once I was sure the faces were true, I'd then have them drill and tap the holes - exactly where and how many, I don't know, but I'd want counter-sunk holes for flat-head socket cap screws to get a flush mound and would then just work around them when hammering. I suppose you could weld the holes and grind flush, but then you've entered into the whole 'don't weld on the face' realm.
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I just was thinking(dangerous,I know)that power hammers all have some sort of mechanical connection between the dies and the anvil proper and don`t seem to suffer too much because of it so why not something like a piece of fork lift or thick tool steel plate bolted to a cast ASO or the remnant of a no face CI anvil body that`s been milled flat.
Everyone seems so set on welding on a face and risking all the problems up to and including heat treating.
Just wondering why nobody mentions bolting as an option.Makes life much easier if it worked even half as well as welding.

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I just was thinking(dangerous,I know)that power hammers all have some sort of mechanical connection between the dies and the anvil proper and don`t seem to suffer too much because of it so why not something like a piece of fork lift or thick tool steel plate bolted to a cast ASO or the remnant of a no face CI anvil body that`s been milled flat.
Everyone seems so set on welding on a face and risking all the problems up to and including heat treating.
Just wondering why nobody mentions bolting as an option.Makes life much easier if it worked even half as well as welding.


Maybe it's just the drive to get as close to the original as you can (e.g., one solid piece) that causes people to spend the money on HF rod and the time welding / milling / grinding - to me it was a matter of restoration versus just making it useful again (which, in and of itself, is a whole other debate). That was the reason I guess I went with the welding approach, but is it superior? Maybe. By a lot? Don't know. Worth the effort? To me yes, but you do have a valid point about making a cast ASO or a remnant of a no face CL anvil body useful.

I guess both approaches have their problems. Bolting I would think would require a good match between surfaces. Not everyone has access to a milling machine or a surface grinder, and getting a good flat surface by hand isn't easy, then there's the drilling, tapping, countersinking, etc... I don't know what kind of tolerances would be acceptable, but I can't imagine you'd want your surface to vary too much. Then again, maybe torquing the thing down will close those gaps. Maybe gaps don't matter too much.

I'll fire one back at you - have you ever bolted one up before? If so, how does it stack up against a solid piece with a good tool steel face?
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Maybe it's just the drive to get as close to the original as you can (e.g., one solid piece) that causes people to spend the money on HF rod and the time welding / milling / grinding - to me it was a matter of restoration versus just making it useful again (which, in and of itself, is a whole other debate). That was the reason I guess I went with the welding approach, but is it superior? Maybe. By a lot? Don't know. Worth the effort? To me yes, but you do have a valid point about making a cast ASO or a remnant of a no face CL anvil body useful.

I guess both approaches have their problems. Bolting I would think would require a good match between surfaces. Not everyone has access to a milling machine or a surface grinder, and getting a good flat surface by hand isn't easy, then there's the drilling, tapping, countersinking, etc... I don't know what kind of tolerances would be acceptable, but I can't imagine you'd want your surface to vary too much. Then again, maybe torquing the thing down will close those gaps. Maybe gaps don't matter too much.

I'll fire one back at you - have you ever bolted one up before? If so, how does it stack up against a solid piece with a good tool steel face?


I haven`t bolted up a traditional anvil but I have bolted a tool steel face to a mild(structural) steel base.The results were better than you may think.
Not as solid as my london pattern anvil bonded to a hardwood stump but better than either just the thick plate alone(even set on edge)or a cast ASO.
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I have been thinking about hardfacing my steel block anvil. The fellow at the scrapyard said that it must be made of alloy steel, since it "did not rust right". I sliced off a small sliver and did a heat treat test. No hardening. Also spark test showed low carbon, but it sparked more like an alloy steel of some kind.

Recently, I bought a bottle of Stoody 85 TG hardfacing powder at a garage sale for a few bucks. Couldn't go wrong at that price. Of course, I did not have an Iphone with me :) so I couldn't search it at the time, but the price was right! Later, I found this to be more of an abrasion resistance alloy that was designed to be applied with a powder torch. A long time ago, these hardfacing powders were applied with a carbon arc torch with DCEN. Sometimes, they were applied in a furnace with fluxing agents added. Maybe I can salvage this stuff yet. The old articles say that carbon arc welding was pretty abandoned due to carbon shed from the electrode embrittling the weld. This may actually be desirable for the case of hardfacing. I have an idea of using high carbon concrete nails as filler, maybe with some of this hardfacing powder. This will yield a high carbon surface, with a little tungsten and nickel alloying. It may be workable, or it may be brittle and dangerous. I just had some reasonable success repurposing some other cheap chemicals that I just purchased recently, so I might give it a try if I work up some courage, or if I want to fill a few divots.

Has anybody tried this out? I think that carbon arc is a pretty good idea to bypass the high cost of hardfacing rods.

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The old articles say that carbon arc welding was pretty abandoned due to carbon shed from the electrode embrittling the weld. This may actually be desirable for the case of hardfacing. I have an idea of using high carbon concrete nails as filler, maybe with some of this hardfacing powder. This will yield a high carbon surface, with a little tungsten and nickel alloying. It may be workable, or it may be brittle and dangerous. I just had some reasonable success repurposing some other cheap chemicals that I just purchased recently, so I might give it a try if I work up some courage, or if I want to fill a few divots.

Has anybody tried this out? I think that carbon arc is a pretty good idea to bypass the high cost of hardfacing rods.


Rather than use carbon arc I would think about using TIG,several orders of magnitude easier to control and much more focused heat.
Carbon arc is really only used to gouge anymore.Other processes have been developed that replaced it for all but that.
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Thermal spray coating is generally limited to thin layers, and is now applied with a special spray head with a hopper with OxyAc or Plasma as heat source. Sorta looks like a drywallers popcorn ceiling gun.

AFAIK, Navy still uses it to build up worn shafts before re-machining, but is only legit on topwater ships.

Lot of interest in cladding surfaces to keep weight down and improve characteristics in tech circles these days.

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Whatever happened to Frosty's idea of brazing on a hard plate of something like D series?

Frosty, if you want to jump in on this, I might give it a try. I have an old london pattern worn clear through the plate. I was going to set up dams and spray it with 70 series flux core someday, but wouldn't mind trying something else.

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When you talk about hardfacing rod it`s important to remember what was posted above by Fosterob,they are NOT all equal.It`s kind of like saying steel is steel.You really do need to do the research and find what is applicable and what is not,just like steel.
As a related but side note,my friend brought me some carbide for use in some stone carving tools he wanted made.I made up the tools,prepared the pockets to receive the inserts and brazed the carbides into place as he had asked.When put to use on granite the carbide promptly shattered.He had used carbide suitable for wear resistance(machinist surplus) and not something that had impact resistance.I did what he had asked but he had set himself up for failure.
The tools were repaired using rods meant for refacing jackhammer bits and they got him thru the job and made him enough money to buy the real deal thru Trow and Holden,a stone tool supplier in Vermont.T&H was also where he got his education regarding the different applications for carbide.

The rod I have is a stoody impact rod made to overlay A buildup rod, dont have the number on the top of my head but I think it will do the job. thanks C.B. B)
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Thermal spray coating is generally limited to thin layers, and is now applied with a special spray head with a hopper with OxyAc or Plasma as heat source. Sorta looks like a drywallers popcorn ceiling gun.

AFAIK, Navy still uses it to build up worn shafts before re-machining, but is only legit on topwater ships.

Lot of interest in cladding surfaces to keep weight down and improve characteristics in tech circles these days.

We used to use the early versions of that stuff on the tender I was stationed on back in late 70's early 80's we used a wire spray and powder with oxy/acet.
Also used an electro plating process with a carbon rub form and pumped a charged electrolytic fluid through it while spinning over a tub on a lathe woked pretty good on both processes... B)
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Noresman STEVE'S Welding here one of the best repairs for an anvil I know of,
is the one Rod Gunter has said.I have repaid over 35 + anvils to date with 1105 rod and all are still in good shape even the 2 in the high school metal shop that's being use by kid that have no Idea how to use an anvil right, THAT SAID the story. I have 2 on the welding table to do now :)
by the way where you at ? northern Ca here Good Luck

I used to be one of the machinists at South Coast Lumber in Brookings and am familiar with Steve's, asked for work there after Clinton's N.A.F.T.A. project screwed me out of the best job I ever had.(None was available at the time) K Falls is a little too far away
and I am able to do the repair, but thanks for your reply, next time I take a ride out that way I'll stop by and thank you personally... B)
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  • 2 years later...

Just got off the phone with Lincoln Electric.  They recommended either:

 

Wearshield ABR

 

or

 

Wearshield 44

 

For both good impact resistance and ability to withstand direct hammer blows without denting.

 

The ABR looks more interesting to me because it specifically states it has good forging capabilities (could be also used to hardface other tools like hammers).

 

If you click to the "typical operating procedures" tab on the left it also give heat treating steps.

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