My new Tong from Germany

[De St Uby]

Recently we were in Germany at a flea market (the border is just close).

There an older man sold a forge tong (3 euros)...
Intrigued by a date on the tong, I bought it.

At home I cleaned the old tong.

Here are pics :





The tong is 30 cm long, and dated from 1937.

[De St Uby]

The next pics :









"REICHSHEER = "german army"

It's the "german eagle" and dated from "1937"...

[jimbob]

a real find I think I'ed put it on display on the wall with that eagle its worth way more than what you paid for it

[ThomasPowers]

My best smithing find when I was in Germany was a copy of Kühn's Geschmiedetes Eisen from 1939. I speak enough German to be be able to ask booksellers at the flea market about old books on smithing and iron work.

[Sam Thompson]

Grind the marks out of it; the eagle will be standing on a small swastika. Many people consider hanging Nazi memorabilia on the wall a bit odd.

[K. Bryan Morgan]

Personally I would put those tongs to work. Not a thing wrong with them. I wouldn't grind off anything. But that's just me. They are worth more money unaltered. But I would use them.

[ThomasPowers]

Well I'm of the mind that "if you start ignoring history; then you can start to deny it!" and this is something that should *NEVER* be forgotten!

My book has several examples of what you might expect to find in a 1939 smithing book published in Germany; the new reprints do not have those pages. I did warn a friend of mine who lost a lot of his family in the camps about it's content before he looked at it. Forewarned is forearmed.

One of the aspects of early 20th century nationalism was a big surge in interest in "folk arts and crafts" and research into them; often such works are slanted politically but as I tell students: "Ignore the politics and look at the pictures"---as a lot of the archeological items were lost during the wars.

[Sam Thompson]

I didn't mean not to use them, just to destroy the marks on them that might delight the sick b******s who collect that stuff. It's only a pair of tongs, they're unlikely to yield much new archaeological information.I doubt that using them will cause genocide or the invasion of smaller countries (or perhaps it already has).
I've got a few pairs of British army tongs of the same vintage and they were made in prisons.

[De St Uby]

I see only a value of collection especially, not the other thing there, these crowbars are very rare now, and then it is that a tool finally.

I am a collector also of smithing tools and anvils, and a collector owes have no preconceived political idea about his collection especially "pre-chewed" by politicians.

I also possess forge tools of the French army, and without any preconceived idea, it is a part of my collection, it is everything.

Let us not forget that according to the tradition there are always smiths which forge the swords of the gods, to wage war....

(sorry for my poor english, i do my best)

[youngdylan]

I didn't mean not to use them, just to destroy the marks on them that might delight the sick b******s who collect that stuff. It's only a pair of tongs, they're unlikely to yield much new archaeological information.I doubt that using them will cause genocide or the invasion of smaller countries (or perhaps it already has).
I've got a few pairs of British army tongs of the same vintage and they were made in prisons.

well said

[K. Bryan Morgan]

I totally understand what you are saying Sam, and you too Youngdylan. My father fought in WWII, out of his entire highschool graduating class, he was the only one who came home alive. My dad hated the Japanese for his entire life. Never did reconcile his feelings.

That war was over long ago and our brave men and women who stood against that tyranny will not be long with us. I for one, honor their memory. I grew up hearing about the horrors of what happened in those times. I fully understand the meaning of the symbols and also understand well what your saying. I just don't let an emblem dictate to me is all.

[Bentiron1946]

The German army had to shoe a lot of horses as a fair amount of their supply carriers early in the war were horse drawn. It was amazing to me how much horse power was in use in the armies of the world in the mid thirties. I worked with a retired one star general from WWII that started his military career as a young man in 1932 breaking remounts for the cavalry and by the time he landed in North Africa he was totally mechanized and never rode a horse again until he retired and bought his own after Viet Nam. :blink:

[Sask Mark]

I knew a local guy that had the eagle on a swastika off the front of a nazi locomotive from WWII. He did not have it to glamorize or promote the nazi ideals, he was just a collector of historical artifacts.

[Minion]

I would leave it how it is, now matter the reasoning behind the symbol it is still a piece of history. You dont have to be a sick bastard to collect pieces of history, no matter the time period or the actions behind a certain piece.

[Sam Thompson]

I would leave it how it is, now matter the reasoning behind the symbol it is still a piece of history. You dont have to be a sick bastard to collect pieces of history, no matter the time period or the actions behind a certain piece.

I have to disagree, collecting nazi memorabilia is sick.

[Mainely,Bob]

I have to disagree, collecting nazi memorabilia is sick.

As previously posted"Those who deny history are destined to repeat it".
There are plenty of sick people out there who look and act like regular folks and collecting WW II memorabilia has absolutely nothing to do with most people`s mental health problems.
Trying to emulate the ideals that the Nazis stood for would be a cause to be considered sick.
There`s plenty of hate rolling around out there and most of it has nothing to do with a swastika.That symbol can be dated back several centuries before Hitler adopted it.

[ThomasPowers]

My Grandfather brought back souvenirs from the war. It was common at that time for the folks who actually put their lives on the line to do so.

Glad to be corrected that they were "sick"; I had the mistaken belief that they were *HEROES*!

He was a part of the first wave on Iwo Jima that didn't have 90+% casualties and had nightmares for years about it.

Anyone else ever seen any of the captured sub O2 tanks where they stamped a square around the swastika? I've seen a few back 30 years ago...

[Sam Thompson]

The swastika itself isn't evil. it's thousands of years old (and was painted on the side of a number of British aircraft in WW1).
These tongs aren't a personal trophy and they have no historical importance except as a relic of one of the most vile political systems that mankind has yet devised.

[youngdylan]

My Grandfather brought back souvenirs from the war. It was common at that time for the folks who actually put their lives on the line to do so.

Glad to be corrected that they were "sick"; I had the mistaken belief that they were *HEROES*!

He was a part of the first wave on Iwo Jima that didn't have 90+% casualties and had nightmares for years about it.

Anyone else ever seen any of the captured sub O2 tanks where they stamped a square around the swastika? I've seen a few back 30 years ago...

Thomas, there's a world of difference between collecting war memorabilia and specifically collecting nazi memorabilia.
I've absolutely nothing against the first, plenty against the second. People say there's nothing wrong with collecting history, well everything that was ever made is part of history. That includes the blueprint's for the gas chambers that those super efficient nazi supermen engineers specifically designed to be a efficient as possible knowing full well what they do. I kinda thing everyone should be made to read Primo Levi's "If this man/The truce"

[Mainely,Bob]

I`ll read it if you`ll read one from your side of the pond.
"Deliver Us From Evil" by William Shawcross.
Just one book from the unofficial required reading for all Combat Arms types in the US Armed Forces.
After that you can read "We Were Soldiers Once,and Young",that one was officially required reading for all officers and NCOs.
E-mail if you need more.

[youngdylan]

I`ll read it if you`ll read one from your side of the pond.
"Deliver Us From Evil" by William Shawcross.
Just one book from the unofficial required reading for all Combat Arms types in the US Armed Forces.
After that you can read "We Were Soldiers Once,and Young",that one was officially required reading for all officers and NCOs.
E-mail if you need more.

I'll give it a go Bob when I finally manage to get on holiday ... hopefully this year. It's just about the only time I get to read in depth.

What's it about then?

"If this is man" is about his time and near death in Auswich and simple observations of the nazis. "The Truce" is about his release and repatration back to Italy (a wonderful country by the way). It takes you the absolute depths of hell and then little by little without hardly noticing it you find your spirts lifted by the common humanity of his encounters on his way home.

The scarey thing about nazism is that .... in broad brush strokes ....they were elected by the middle classes not that long ago by a supossed civilized country and were passionately adulated by many at the time..... could it happen again? ..... something similar to the concentration camps went on in Bosnia

Sorry to do politics everyone.

[Mainely,Bob]

Well Cap`n it happens every day.Just not on such a large scale and with such organization.
That`s what Shawcross` book is about,through the eyes and words of the guys with "boots on ground".

The officially required book is about the first large scale battle between US and NVA forces in Vietnam.It is an excellent account of what happens when you are both lucky and do everything right as the initially engaged US Cav forces did.It also shows what happens when you are unlucky and don`t do everything right as the relief forces found out.
My brother,the college professor,kept asking me about the Infantry.After he read my copy he handed it back and said"I`m so glad my son joined the Navy".He asked me to introduce him to my recon platoon so he could personally thank us for what we do.
I explained that he had read the book,they understood.

[edge9001]

Just my opinion as a veteran of the current war in Iraq, but I see no reason to alter the tongs. I would put them up as a display piece especially with the excelent condition they are in. Not to put on display the nazi heritage of the tool but the collectable/ monitary value. the older they get the less irems there are still in good shape. so the older they get the more they are worth. the swatika hasan evil past, but most symbols have somewhere it thier past have a negative useage. the swastika is an ancient norse symbol which was made from 2 crossed lightening bolts. its meaning was something like "may my enemies all feel my wrath" hitler had an affinity for the occult and some say that is why he chose the swastika as the symbol of his regime. I feel the historical value of these tongs far outweighs the negative conotations or the working vaslue of a pair of tongs. however...\


keep these tongs away from ALL WWII vets and thier immediate family. some people can never allow themselves to forgive or forget wrongs done to them. while I have no love for the enemies of the US past or present(and I definatly don't like the Nazis) I do feel the past is the past, learn from it and move on. Look to the future and learn from the past.

[Iron Clad]

The swastika was also an old Native American symbol with some tribes. It was used by at least one tribe here in the Pacific Northwest.

Collecting for historical purposes I believe is okay but if a person was a Neo-Nazi and collecting to promote their cause, that's not okay with me.

NOW think about this, if the marks were ground off and the tongs were never shown on this site we wouldn't be having this discussion and I believe something would be lost. Discussions like this keep history alive so that we never forget the mistakes made in the past. I say, keep the tongs and the marks so that future generations can remember and have a discussion like this one, it's important even on a small scale.

[edge9001]

***applause***

you see my point it is about time I was able to get my idea to come to light. Ironclad You said in one line what I was trying to say

"NOW think about this, if the marks were ground off and the tongs were never shown on this site we wouldn't be having this discussion and I believe something would be lost. Discussions like this keep history alive so that we never forget the mistakes made in the past. I say, keep the tongs and the marks so that future generations can remember and have a discussion like this one, it's important even on a small scale"