welding a fire pot

[John McPherson]

OK, it looks like I got some 'splaining to do here. I teach a little of everything at a large CC welding program: Short Arc, Pulse & Spray Arc MIG, Flux core, TIG, Oxy-Acetylene, Stick, thermal and mechanical cutting processes, you name it. I am also an AWS Certified Welding Inspector. I have seen a lot of folks with skill levels ranging from zero to incredible weld (or attempt to weld) a lot of stuff. And as a CWI and teacher, I have inspected, destroyed and graded everything from autobody sheet metal to 1" thick bridge plate samples. I am painfully aware of the possible shortcomings of welders and filler metals.

First rule of welding is match the filler rod to the metal, and the skill of the user. He says he is learning, using a stick welder on mild plate (35-50Kpsi), so the closest fit would be E60XX. Cheap, needs less amps from a home welder, flexible under stress, adequate for the job at hand, leftovers need no special storage.

E7018 is a wonderful rod +++ if +++ you keep it in a rod oven. Most do not, and it can develop hydrogen cracking at a later date.It is also prone to thermal quenchcracking, like when you put water in a firepot. I have seen quenched/poorly stored 7018 welds break plenty of times.

Now if you really want to weld steam or oil pipe, I suggest E7010 or E8010, followed by E8018 or higher. Call me when the X-rays are done.

[Mainely,Bob]

OK, it looks like I got some 'splaining to do here. I teach a little of everything at a large CC welding program: Short Arc, Pulse & Spray Arc MIG, Flux core, TIG, Oxy-Acetylene, Stick, thermal and mechanical cutting processes, you name it. I am also an AWS Certified Welding Inspector. I have seen a lot of folks with skill levels ranging from zero to incredible weld (or attempt to weld) a lot of stuff. And as a CWI and teacher, I have inspected, destroyed and graded everything from autobody sheet metal to 1" thick bridge plate samples. I am painfully aware of the possible shortcomings of welders and filler metals.

First rule of welding is match the filler rod to the metal, and the skill of the user. He says he is learning, using a stick welder on mild plate (35-50Kpsi), so the closest fit would be E60XX. Cheap, needs less amps from a home welder, flexible under stress, adequate for the job at hand, leftovers need no special storage.

E7018 is a wonderful rod +++ if +++ you keep it in a rod oven. Most do not, and it can develop hydrogen cracking at a later date.It is also prone to thermal quenchcracking, like when you put water in a firepot. I have seen quenched/poorly stored 7018 welds break plenty of times.

Now if you really want to weld steam or oil pipe, I suggest E7010 or E8010, followed by E8018 or higher. Call me when the X-rays are done.

John,

I think what Arftist and I were commenting on was the post that suggested to do a root pass with 6010 and then weld the cover passes with 7018.I at least thought that was what Arftist was asking as that`s what he said(I thought pretty plainly) in his post.
So, the question once again that I thought he was asking and that I was answering was,and I quote"Why,why,why, would anyone weld a root pass with 6010 and then cap with 7018?"

If this fire pot welding is being done by a beginner,at home,with no way to properly store 7018 rods prior to use then I completely see and agree with your point.
That was not the question I was answering and it was not your post or choice of rods I was questioning.
Hope that clears up any misunderstanding.

[John McPherson]

He said 'beginner', 'buzz box', and 'torch cut by a friend'. So I made a few assumptions based on that. Yeah, I should know better.

Hand torch cutting may add some carbon to the cut surface. It will leave a ragged, oxidized edge with dingleberries (technical term). He did not say anything about owning or knowing how to use a grinder, or access to a fully equipped fab shop with a CNC plasma table, etc. I did not assault him with terms like root gap, land, bevel angle or polarity.

Metallurgically speaking, there are two reasons to start with a low alloy rod like E60XX. One, it does a better job of cleaning off dirty, torch cut metal and floating the crud off in the flux. Two, the strength difference between mild and 60 series is close. The resulting metal in the weld puddle with be an alloy somewhere between the base metal and the rod. More likely to be flexible than the resulting union between scrap yard mystery metal and a high alloy/low hydrogen rod, such as E7018.

Welding everything with 7018 does not make you a better welder, anymore than playing 18 holes with one club makes you a better golfer.

Heck, gas welding it with RG45 would be slow, but plenty strong and flexible, but these young whippersnappers do not appreciate how good they have it. Why, back in my day...Just because I was born under a flag with 48 stars. Mumble, mumble.

I'm not a old phart, I'm Institutional Memory.

[Mainely,Bob]

I'm not a old phart, I'm Institutional Memory.

Institutional Memory,isn`t that what keeps us from becoming repeat offenders?
I really like how that thought works on more than one level.

[jmeineke]

Heck, gas welding it with RG45 would be slow, but plenty strong and flexible, but these young whippersnappers do not appreciate how good they have it. Why, back in my day...Just because I was born under a flag with 48 stars. Mumble, mumble.

I'm not a old phart, I'm Institutional Memory.

I'd actually like to learn all of the older techniques, not just for the 'appreciation factor', but also I think you learn a lot in the process. There's also a lot of satisfaction in stepping back in time and doing it old-school.

I remember watching an episode of "Deadliest Catch" where one of the greenhorns complained about something being hard to do and the deck boss decided to teach him a lesson about how good they have it compared to the old days of crab fishing. They turned off the hydrolics, took away the moving tables, made him hand coil the rope as they pulled the crab pot, etc. Needless to say, he learned his lesson not just about complaining, but he also knows how fish when the new stuff breaks down.

Just remember that there are a lot of young whippersnappers out there, especially among the blacksmithing crowd, who love to learn the old-school ways (and have a lot of admiration for the guys who have that knowledge). I know a 15 year old kid who has a Harbor Freight ASO, a charcoal forge, a hand bellows (that he made) and a hammer and a few tongs - not much more than that - and he's learning how to make and cast bronze, make knives, etc. He won't use electricity to power any of his tools. If he needs metal removed, he files if off by hand or cuts it with a hardy. There's something special about stepping back in time and doing things the way they used to be done. He's just as happy - maybe even more so - doing what he's doing how he's doing it as someone who has all the latest and greatest. I think that's really cool.

I'd love to learn to live off the land like my great grandparents did; how to live without a fridge, how to build a root cellar and can / store your own food, how to find edible plants in the woods, how to hunt & trap your own food, raise livestock, hand-plow your garden, preserve your seedstock from this years harvest to the next, build a log cabin, and, of course, how to fire up the forge and make a new ladle for maw. I'm sure I wouldn't be able to give up the modern conveniences I've learned to depend on, but it would sure be nice to know how to live the way they used to if it ever came to that.

Joe

[Bryce Masuk]

I'd actually like to learn all of the older techniques, not just for the 'appreciation factor', but also I think you learn a lot in the process. There's also a lot of satisfaction in stepping back in time and doing it old-school.

I remember watching an episode of "Deadliest Catch" where one of the greenhorns complained about something being hard to do and the deck boss decided to teach him a lesson about how good they have it compared to the old days of crab fishing. They turned off the hydrolics, took away the moving tables, made him hand coil the rope as they pulled the crab pot, etc. Needless to say, he learned his lesson not just about complaining, but he also knows how fish when the new stuff breaks down.

Just remember that there are a lot of young whippersnappers out there, especially among the blacksmithing crowd, who love to learn the old-school ways (and have a lot of admiration for the guys who have that knowledge). I know a 15 year old kid who has a Harbor Freight ASO, a charcoal forge, a hand bellows (that he made) and a hammer and a few tongs - not much more than that - and he's learning how to make and cast bronze, make knives, etc. He won't use electricity to power any of his tools. If he needs metal removed, he files if off by hand or cuts it with a hardy. There's something special about stepping back in time and doing things the way they used to be done. He's just as happy - maybe even more so - doing what he's doing how he's doing it as someone who has all the latest and greatest. I think that's really cool.

I'd love to learn to live off the land like my great grandparents did; how to live without a fridge, how to build a root cellar and can / store your own food, how to find edible plants in the woods, how to hunt & trap your own food, raise livestock, hand-plow your garden, preserve your seedstock from this years harvest to the next, build a log cabin, and, of course, how to fire up the forge and make a new ladle for maw. I'm sure I wouldn't be able to give up the modern conveniences I've learned to depend on, but it would sure be nice to know how to live the way they used to if it ever came to that.

Joe

the funny thing is the fact that the point we are at now is all so minor.

I am part anti technology in the fact I wouldnt want to be dependant on it but we will we fully dependant on it in the next 25 years.

But the again I am using it right now

and no one will know jack about farming (not that many do anymore)
no one will be able to draft or draw without a computer
most people dont know how a measuring tape works let alone a level or plumb bob

I love the old books finding stuff from the early-late 19th century is always amazing

http://books.google.ca/books?id=Ti8DAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=ornamental+drawing+and+architectural+design&source=bl&ots=TZdKvqg3cV&sig=6-4J0VKotNcPE5Az1MXYJAod1vo&hl=en&ei=My9DTO-lHIb6swO12NWaDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.ca/books?id=rCwDAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+illustrated+london+drawing+book&hl=en&ei=hy9DTKyIC43UtQPM1fjKDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

and its exactly what will end people as we know, but the reality is evolution evolve one way too much in the wrong direction and you will up shite creek

but that is the nature of things go too far on the see saw and things flip around on you and as far as I can see things need to be flipped

[Mainely,Bob]

An excellent exercise in getting down to basics is to be required to carry everything you think important with you for a while.Things get cut down and left by the side of the road pretty quickly,especially when they run out of gas or the batteries go dead.
The most important things suddenly become,a good pair of well broken in boots,a knife,a compass(and if you`re lucky and can read it,a map)and most importantly the skills you have stored upstairs.
The proper skills can be used to get you what you need.Sitting on the couch playing video games will make it game over in a hurry.

[clinton]

Anyone?

When doing a complete penetration weld such as a pipe joint it is common practice to use a 6010 electrode for the root pass this allows you to have a "keyhole" that keeps the root open allowing the weld metal to cool using a "whipping" technique and giving a slight build up of weld metal inside the pipe. Once the root pass is complete you clean up then apply the 7018 as a "hot pass" and fill and cover. This is a common pipe welding procedure there is no access to the back of the weld so no back gouge.
http://www.gowelding.com/wp/wps1.html
This is what the joint will look like it does not have anything to do with poor fit up this is just how it is done, and I can assure you that if you attempt to place the root pass with the 7018 you will end up with a mess it will not work in an open groove.
I am not trying to say that this fire pot is the right application for this weld I am just trying to explain why someone would use 6010 then 7018 fill and cover

[arftist]

When doing a complete penetration weld such as a pipe joint it is common practice to use a 6010 electrode for the root pass this allows you to have a "keyhole" that keeps the root open allowing the weld metal to cool using a "whipping" technique and giving a slight build up of weld metal inside the pipe. Once the root pass is complete you clean up then apply the 7018 as a "hot pass" and fill and cover. This is a common pipe welding procedure there is no access to the back of the weld so no back gouge.
http://www.gowelding.com/wp/wps1.html
This is what the joint will look like it does not have anything to do with poor fit up this is just how it is done, and I can assure you that if you attempt to place the root pass with the 7018 you will end up with a mess it will not work in an open groove.
I am not trying to say that this fire pot is the right application for this weld I am just trying to explain why someone would use 6010 then 7018 fill and cover

So, correct me if I am wrong, but, by that logic, the only reason you are using 7018 at all is because it will finnish the joint faster?

[John McPherson]

Nope, 7018 is stronger, and easier to get an X-ray quality weld with. It is used at higher amps, and is a 'slow freeze' rod. It just **will not** bridge a gap, and can't be used for open root or poor fit-up full penetration welds. For that, you need 6010 or equivalent 'fast freeze' rod.

6010 followed by 7018 has been a tried and true pressure vessel and pipe industry standard for decades.

[jmeineke]

6010 followed by 7018 has been a tried and true pressure vessel and pipe industry standard for decades.

Just curious - what about 6011 or 6013 followed by 7018? For hobby welding, I like 6013 - no storage issues, decent bead appearance. I have problems using 6011 - haven't quite gotten the technique down yet.

Joe

[Dragons lair]

My guess is the person who recommended it or one of his relatives used to be a pipe welder as that used to be the approved technique way back when.
That same technique is also used in marine repair when dealing with rusty,oily,or otherwise dirty steel and the 60 series rod is used to "burn in" the root pass and scour out the bad stuff and establish a base for the 70 series cover passes.
As you said,once the 70 series rod passes are in place the root was usually ground or gouged out from the back.
Can`t see why anyone starting with good clean steel and decent fit up would want to use a 60 series rod to start and then cover with 70 either.

The first 2 numbers of the rod designation have to do with strength,yield or shear strength I believe but not sure and my books are packed away.
Why would you want to start with a rod that had 10,000 less strength when you could just do the whole job with the higher strength rod?Less adjustments to the machine,less grinding of spatter,easier to clear flux,only have to carry one kind of rod, also are good reasons to do as Arftist suggests.
If you were going to Mig this project would you start with an equivalent to 60-- wire and then re-spool with 70 to finish?
In short the 70-- is stronger,that`s why.

Sorry Bob this old Conn Yankee just has to ask. Is this rocket work, nascar,avaiton, structual iron? We are talking about holding the pieces of a fire pot together. Have seen one gas welded with coat hangers. Burned thru before the weld gave out. I don't see any issue with 60k over 70k. Course I run a gasser perhaps a coal forge develops more stress. Grin.
Ken.

[Mainely,Bob]

Sorry Bob this old Conn Yankee just has to ask. Is this rocket work, nascar,avaiton, structual iron? We are talking about holding the pieces of a fire pot together. Have seen one gas welded with coat hangers. Burned thru before the weld gave out. I don't see any issue with 60k over 70k. Course I run a gasser perhaps a coal forge develops more stress. Grin.
Ken.

As I said in a previous post,I was attempting to answer the question Arftist asked.

As a personal preference,I would use 7018(properly stored of course)because of the reasons I mentioned to include easier to remove the flux,less spatter,better finished appearance,higher strength and just because I prefer it over 6010 on anything but rusty or oily steel.
Guess that`s why they make so many different rods(and coat hangers too),so everybody can try them and find one they like over all the rest,regardless of what the numbers say.
I have even used 7018 to successfully repair cast iron because that was all we had at the time.Just because something works in one particular instance doesn`t mean it`s the best thing or even a proper thing to use.It may just mean you were holding your mouth right and got lucky that day. B)

[clinton]

Nope, 7018 is stronger, and easier to get an X-ray quality weld with. It is used at higher amps, and is a 'slow freeze' rod. It just **will not** bridge a gap, and can't be used for open root or poor fit-up full penetration welds. For that, you need 6010 or equivalent 'fast freeze' rod.

6010 followed by 7018 has been a tried and true pressure vessel and pipe industry standard for decades.
This is absolutely right I would like to add one thing, when you are doing "code welding" you do what the welding procedure calls for and also you do what the welding inspector wants ( if you did every thing right it should be what the inspector wants, but some inspectors have their own way of doing things) Well that's two things

[HWHII]

Just curious - what about 6011 or 6013 followed by 7018? For hobby welding, I like 6013 - no storage issues, decent bead appearance. I have problems using 6011 - haven't quite gotten the technique down yet.

Joe

Didn't someone mention this earlier? :lol:

[jmeineke]

Didn't someone mention this earlier?

Yeah, but it was talking about 6010. I specifically want to know about 6013.

[jmeineke]

Yeah, but it was talking about 6010. I specifically want to know about 6013.

Also, you'll have to excuse my ignorance - I'm still learning

[Mainely,Bob]

Just curious - what about 6011 or 6013 followed by 7018? For hobby welding, I like 6013 - no storage issues, decent bead appearance. I have problems using 6011 - haven't quite gotten the technique down yet.

Joe

I mean this post as helpful instruction and nothing more.

There are two ways to go about getting information;You can go to someone who knows the answer and get it from them,or you can do your own research and get an understanding for the process and be able to move forward on your own.
I`ve said it before more than once,there`s a reason for those numbers on the rod can and the rods themselves.Those are not serial numbers,they tell you just about everything you need to know about both that rod and how to find futher info about it`s proper use and applications.
Either bookmark a site like AWS,ABS,Lincoln,Hobart,Miller etc or carry one of those nifty books the welding supply house will sometimes give out free.Access to that info will both free up your brain and also allow you to quickly get info on rods,recommended fit up of joints,accepted welding procedures,reading welding symbols and more.
One other thing it will do,it will free the rest of us up from having to get up out of our chairs or stay seated and leave this site to do the research for you so you can sit,drink your coffee and wait for us to return.
How independent(or dependent) do you want to be?
If that stung anybody then just stand very still for a minute and it will wear off.

[jmeineke]

I mean this post as helpful instruction and nothing more.

There are two ways to go about getting information;You can go to someone who knows the answer and get it from them,or you can do your own research and get an understanding for the process and be able to move forward on your own.
I`ve said it before more than once,there`s a reason for those numbers on the rod can and the rods themselves.Those are not serial numbers,they tell you just about everything you need to know about both that rod and how to find futher info about it`s proper use and applications.
Either bookmark a site like AWS,ABS,Lincoln,Hobart,Miller etc or carry one of those nifty books the welding supply house will sometimes give out free.Access to that info will both free up your brain and also allow you to quickly get info on rods,recommended fit up of joints,accepted welding procedures,reading welding symbols and more.
One other thing it will do,it will free the rest of us up from having to get up out of our chairs or stay seated and leave this site to do the research for you so you can sit,drink your coffee and wait for us to return.
How independent(or dependent) do you want to be?
If that stung anybody then just stand very still for a minute and it will wear off.

I guess I should have been more clear.

I do plenty of research, and I don't intend to come here so that people can do my homework for me. I've read every book our library has on welding - my only teacher is this site, other sites and books. I know what the AWS numbers on rods mean with the exception of specifically how the rod coating may or may not relate to the topic of overlays and underlays.

All I was asking was is 6013 the same as 6010/11 when it comes to 7018 being laid on it. A simple "yes" or "no" is all I was looking for because I like using 6013; didn't seem like a tough question that would require someone to "get up out of their chair .... to do the research" for me. I don't recall reading in a book (or somewhere) anything other than 6010 or 6011 (I don't remember which) being used as a root pass. If the electrode coating doesn't make a difference and it all comes down to the tensile strength, then that answers my question.

[HWHII]

I guess I should have been more clear.

I do plenty of research, and I don't intend to come here so that people can do my homework for me. I've read every book our library has on welding - my only teacher is this site, other sites and books. I know what the AWS numbers on rods mean with the exception of specifically how the rod coating may or may not relate to the topic of overlays and underlays.

All I was asking was is 6013 the same as 6010/11 when it comes to 7018 being laid on it. A simple "yes" or "no" is all I was looking for because I like using 6013; didn't seem like a tough question that would require someone to "get up out of their chair .... to do the research" for me. I don't recall reading in a book (or somewhere) anything other than 6010 or 6011 (I don't remember which) being used as a root pass. If the electrode coating doesn't make a difference and it all comes down to the tensile strength, then that answers my question.

I did not mean my earlier comment to be a smart one towards you. I had made a comment earliy on in this thread, stating how easy to run 6013 is. You are right it is a great rod to learn with. In fact when I first learned to weld in high school it was the first rod we used for assignments. Also to anwser your question the coating is different. 6010&6011 have a organic coating and is considered a fast freeze and penetrates deeper and handles paint and rusty material better than 6013. 6013 has a rutile coating and a softer arc with a less penetrating weld with less spatter. Also someone else had mentioned it is a sheet metal rod which is true but also good for irregular short welds that change positions, Maintenance or repair and for use with AC welders with low open circut voltage. It is available in dia. 5/64 all the way to 3/16 which makes it great for plate welding also. I hope this anwsers you question better. :)

[jmeineke]

I did not mean my earlier comment to be a smart one towards you. I had made a comment earliy on in this thread, stating how easy to run 6013 is. You are right it is a great rod to learn with. In fact when I first learned to weld in high school it was the first rod we used for assignments. Also to anwser your question the coating is different. 6010&6011 have a organic coating and is considered a fast freeze and penetrates deeper and handles paint and rusty material better than 6013. 6013 has a rutile coating and a softer arc with a less penetrating weld with less spatter. Also someone else had mentioned it is a sheet metal rod which is true but also good for irregular short welds that change positions, Maintenance or repair and for use with AC welders with low open circut voltage. It is available in dia. 5/64 all the way to 3/16 which makes it great for plate welding also. I hope this anwsers you question better.

For mild steel - even thick stuff - I think 6013 is a good rod to fabricate with too, not just to learn on. No, I'm not welding car frames, skyscrapers, rockets, roll cages, so I'm sure it doesn't matter for me. As someone else pointed out earlier, you want to pick the rod that more closely matches the metal you're welding. For mild steel, which is about all I ever work with, as he said, that's the 60 series. Seems like 6013 penetrates far enough for what I use it for, it's easy, cheap and, as you said, you don't need to worry about storing it in your garage.

If you don't have a rod oven, seems like your only option is the 60XX series or buy 7018 fresh and use it up right away (although I do have a box of 7014 and 7024 that I've been playing with).

Funny, but Sears Hardware sells 7018 rod from US Forge that comes in a shrink wrapped package, but the box is cardboard and the plastic shrink wrap has clean punched holes in it - definitely not air tight. I see stuff like that and then hear all the different opinions about this rod versus that rod, how to properly store it, and then walk into a welding supply store that sells opened boxes of loose 7018 rod and says it's fine since it's been inside their air-conditioned store, or the guy at the counter who says just throw the lid back on the fresh stuff and wrap it in electric tape when you're done, and on and on and on....

Makes my head spin trying to figure out who to listen to, who might have an agenda (rod oven manufacturers? Welding stores with inventory they have to move?) not to mention the fact that apparently at one point it was taught that a refrigerator and a light bulb were all you needed to store 7018 in. Some people still swear by it.

I'm starting to not care anymore.

[John McPherson]

The straight answer is "it depends".

If you are welding for the public, then I hope it is to a professionally qualified Code requirement, where no deviation is permitted. You will use these joint configurations, rods, polarity, amps, weld bead width, thickness and progression. And you better store your rod correctly. Would you want less working with live steam at 500F and 2000psi? On the Interstate bridge you cross going to work? Shock, vibration, corrosion, thermal and load cycling start working on the weld. And then there is human stupidity.

If you are just cobbling stuff together for your own use and amusement, who cares? If they are selling me open rod, I expect a deep discount. With good technique, you could probably do an acceptable job with car batteries, jumper cables and coathangers. Non critical welds for shop jigs and fixtures are usually made with the stubs swept up off the shop floor in the past month and thrown in a barrel awaiting recycling. At 70,000psi, a gorilla could not pull apart a good tack weld, much less a full length, full penetration bead. Try welding a 1" long bead between two business card sized coupons, then clamp one end in a sturdy vise and beat on it with an 4 pound hammer, or get a pipe wrench and flex it 180 degrees until it fails. The metal structure should deform and fail before the weld does. (There is a whole field of weld shop engineering devoted to using just enough to get the job done. More is not always better. There is a human desire to fill up everything.)

The difference is professional liability. You can get away with doing stuff for yourself that hurts only you. Its all just fun and games until the lawyers get involved.

[Fosterob]

I only buy 7018 in 10 lb hermeticly sealed containers, or HSC. ESAB or lincoln both easy to get but may need to be ordered. Any job to be inspected you open a new can in front of the inspector and you have 9 hrs? to use with no oven. Most structural work I do is MIG wire so rod oven is not needed. Welding rod to welders is like hammers to blacksmiths, if your neighbor down the street comes over and borrows your best forging hammer to bust up his concrete driveway you would tell him that is not the right tool for the job. Rods are the same, many different rods for different uses. 6011 or 6013 for garage use on personal projects with limited knowledge/skill is probably all anyone needs in that situation.
Rob

[clinton]

Just curious - what about 6011 or 6013 followed by 7018? For hobby welding, I like 6013 - no storage issues, decent bead appearance. I have problems using 6011 - haven't quite gotten the technique down yet.

Joe

Ok I will add my 2 cents worth 6013 is junk rod no good penetration and the slag covers so quick that you can not see the weld pool, which can cause incomplete fusion. If you are having problems with 6011 then it is probably a technique issue, there are five tools that a welder has control over
1-Electrode selection (size and type)
2- Current
3- Arc length
4- Speed of travel
5- Motion and angle of electrode
If you are having problems adjusting these five tools will result in success.
I would suggest that you do the fillet test that John mentioned- Try welding a 1" long bead between two business card sized coupons, then clamp one end in a sturdy vise and beat on it with an 4 pound hammer, or get a pipe wrench and flex it 180 degrees until it fails. The metal structure should deform and fail before the weld does. Do this with the 6013 and then again with the 6011 and see which one breaks first. If you have 7018 try it as well

[jmeineke]

Ok I will add my 2 cents worth 6013 is junk rod no good penetration and the slag covers so quick that you can not see the weld pool, which can cause incomplete fusion. If you are having problems with 6011 then it is probably a technique issue...

Junk rod? Seems like a pretty strong choice of words. It has it's place in fabrication, does what it was designed to do; nothing more, nothing less. How does that make it junk? Is a 16 ounce hammer "junk" because it can't draw out 4" stock like a little giant power hammer? 1 lb hammers have their place in the shop too.