Are we losing things

[TASMITH]

One common idea in most of these posts is the fact that there are not many "Old Blacksmiths" around to teach the methods of old. Well one thing everyone seems to be forgetting is that everything that has been passed on over the years started with just one person. That person is the one that had to "invent"the tool or method in the first place! That is the basis of the old master blacksmiths "magic". Someone would approach him and say "I need a way to do such and such", then left it with the Blacksmith to figure out a tool or item with which the job could be accomplished. It is being innovative in this way that helped to develop the trade the way it was. They were the early engineers. Later people began to design tools and again the Blacksmith was approached to figure out a way to make it. He would draw on his past experiences and combine them with perhaps a new idea of how to do it and a new method/tool was created.

This is what Blacksmithing is all about. It is as much planning and thought as it is physical work when you are called upon to make or do something you have never done before. I worked for almost thirty years as a Blacksmith in both a major steel producing industry, and a major auto parts forging operation. I was asked to make some really odd looking tools or unusual forgings that were specific to the industry.When I served my apprenticeship I worked with five other blacksmiths in a large capacity forging shop. We forge items you wouldn't know what they were for unless you worked out in the mills , steelmaking ,iron, making or coke making. Sometimes we would get new proto type jobs for doing something in the mills and it was up to us to figure out how to forge them.Later when I moved to the auto parts forging shop I was the only Blacksmith. If someone wanted something new in the way of a tool or different style of forging tongs it was up to me how to make them. I had no one else to turn too and had to rely on my own experience and knowledge of how to forge different things. and be creative on my own.

The fact that we have modern tools, materials, the internet, and endless books on the subject to learn from it still comes down to the individual and their ability to work out ways of doing things. Forums like this now make it much easier to share our ideas and thoughts with others so that they too can learn and perhaps even come up with a better easier way to do something or in fact be original. That is a Blacksmith!

Terry

[ThomasPowers]

The term "traditional" makes me break out in hives; as it's usually used as a club by some person whose compromises are all quite logical and acceptable against other people whose compromises are *OBVIOUSLY* *RIGHT* *OUT*!

The most traditional thing we could do is to *NOT* share information. *Everything* must be taught one on one and secrets of the craft should be handed on to selected apprentices to hold in secret for their apprentices and so on down the line through time. Unfortunately in today's world few people have the time to serve a 7 year apprenticeship *before* the get to the state where they might be able to support themselves from their work.

We in the America were lucky to profit from our traditions getting firmly set in the enlightenment when sharing of information was considered a good thing, (just look at Diderot's Encyclopedia!). Just look at "Practical Blacksmithing", Richardson, written in 1889, 1890, 1891 its a collection of articles from a blacksmithing journal---the predecessor to web forums!----and full or handy "tricks" to do hard tasks easier faster and better. (and BTW the first power hammer I have seen documentation on was pre year 1000; so if your "tradition" is pre-powerhammer you are working at a pretty low technology level indeed!)

Lamenting the lack of filing seems funny to me as there is a whole subgroup of smiths---the Neo Tribal Blacksmiths---who have made a virtue of not using powertools and forging to shape and filing is a credo with them. Sort of seems like when I did a business trip to Europe and my colleagues over there were horrified that I hadn't told the car rental place to reserve an automatic transmission vehicle for me. They explained that most likely I would then get a stick shift. I had to explain that I learned to drive on a stick shift and that about 1/2 the cars I had owned were stick. Those Europeans though all Americans only used automatic transmission cars as that was their experience; while we know that lots of Americans drive stick.

For the last 20 years I have been smithing in a hobby smithy "powered" by only an extension cord; yet I don't consider a lot of my work traditional in any way. In fact I have turned down a lot of work as I refuse to wreck my body to do certain things by hand that traditionally would have been done by 3-5 apprentices.

As for knowledge; my great grandfather could re-point a plowshare suitable for the conditions in NW Arkansas. I can't. On the other hand I can pattern weld knife blades and ornamental work and make armour---he couldn't. Which one of us lacks knowledge? (On that same trip to Germany I ended up teaching an 82 year old smith at an open air museum how to weld up a billet as he had never done one and was quite interested in learning.)

Lastly I am not so sure about modern media preserving knowledge over the long haul. My floppy disks are no longer readable and are only 20 years old; yet I have read books that are several hundred years old and seen ones over 1000 years. How many folks can see a betamax movie? Modern storage devices suffer from requiring specialized equipment and software to make them work. *Very* easy to have information lost due to the relentless progress of technology!

[fat pete]

Traditional is a strange word. The only traditional things I see in blacksmithing is lighting the fir, having an anvil shaped like it is, and using a hammer...you could almost open your shop in the morn with a tradition of lighting the forge. working with out electric is a cool novel thing..however, if you wanna make a living and you are good enuff to do it, then you need tools! i did an order for a guy a while ago for 200 hooks, wont sell that order again unless I have access to a pwr hmmr..the old guys arent any different than you...I think that thought that we are different now than we were then is foolish...we are people. True new techniques and tools have been developed but I am sure if there was availability of these tools in the old day they would have used them...no doubt! I just read an article about how autos are almost completely recyclable and the recycled stuff is as good as the original product...it used to be recycled didnt have the reliability and consistancy that it does now...so metal is better. PA Dutch country offers a real visable difference....the amish dont use electric...they do in their shops. If they can get it thru their elders that this is not overdevelopement and determined not to be the devils work... there will be progress and they use the new stuff.
Wanting to reproduce old iron work using old tech is fine but it isnt any better than if u used a angle grinder or piece of stone or another piece of metal or whatever to accomplish the same thing, save for finishes and the like.
Thomas' statement of "we shouldnt share our knowledge" is true. The old timers I used to work in the mill wouldnt tell ya nothing about how to do a piece. Used to annoy me. They figured out little tricks to put them on top of the pile when piecework was how they got paid, so if they could do something a little quicker for them this was worth something. You used to have to show up early for work to learn what the guy was doing to get your production up with the guy who has been doing it for years. You couldnt tell management of these shortcuts cause they would change the rate. You would have to work harder to get the same pay..Then there was the union sitting there saying you didnt get paid for this time and you are doing this for your own benefit, really?? I thought i was working for the company and should know these "shortcuts" or efficiencies after all it is their product. Well in that lies the rub. Guilds were different. They were way more secretive. Some of the things they did and what we do would scare people. The operations would resemble some of their myths and relate to their religions. Also if you were in a guild thats all you did. You didnt have the social organization we have today..good or bad
So simpler times only seem simpler...it just looks that way from your standpoint.
Some of us have old bridgeport milling machines...in a hundred years ..do you think that a bridgeport will be commonly found anywhere? Do you think you will be able to read these files in a hundred years??
Now think ....do you think they willstill be machining?
If so will they be machinists?

[John B]

Hi Fat Pete, Sorry, got to step in here, to quote you
" Guilds were different. They were way more secretive. Some of the things they did and what we do would scare people. The operations would resemble some of their myths and relate to their religions. Also if you were i a guild thats all you did. "

Our Blacksmiths Guild in the UK must break that mould. Our members pass on their Knowledge freely, our Guild course tutors are only paid their travel and accommodation expenses, hence the low cost of our courses, we also freely pass on our experiences such as on this site and at shows where we attend.

[Frank Turley]

The reason there are so many replies here is that this question of old smithery techniques compared to contemporary higher tech methodology will not be solved. Metal workers are going to do what they're going to do. This idea of "If they'd had arc welders in the old days, they would have used them" is moot. They didn't, and that's that. If my grandmother had wheels, she would've been a truck. So much for 'hypothetical'.

But I'm minded of a couple of stories regarding the excellent smith, Tom Bredlow. In the long ago days of the early 1970's, Tom was delivering his Packard auto memorial gate to the National Cathedral in Washington DC. The gate, a tour de force, exactly fit on the bed of his old pickup and was crated with thin plywood. He was driving from Tucson and stopped at Turley Forge in Santa Fe to show his work. I had a class in their second day. Tom pried off the top plywood sheet and revealed his work. Admittedly, none of my students knew what they were looking at. The work was Samuel Yellin quality. One student blurted out, "What'd ya' do, pick it up in Mexico?" Ha ha.

To my way of thinking, the work was fabulous. In the course of inspecting the craftsmanship, I asked Tom if there was possibly any oxy or arc welding on the gate. He said, "NO, BECAUSE THAT WASN'T WHAT IT WAS!" I thought, "What a great answer!" It had to do with what he set out to do. He knew that the gate would be in the company of other fine gates, among them, Yellin's work. He knew that he was going to use that early style of joinery and workmanship. Therefore, that's what he did, and that's what it was.

Did Tom have an arc welder? Yes, he did. Tom told me that one time a guy came in his shop and said, "Ha! I thought you were a blacksmith. What's that arc welder doing over there?" Tom said, "I am a blacksmith; I'm just not a stupid blacksmith!"

Again, in the 1970's, there was an early issue of ABANA's 'Anvil's Ring'. Tom wrote an article titled, "On the Anxieties of Using the Arc Welder." As I recall, he summed up his reasoning by saying that it was OK to use the arc welder if the smith was a good designer, was handy, and was using the weldment judiciously. The idea is knowing what you're going to do for the job at hand.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

[thecelticforge]

I was really not thinking of to use or not to use modern equipment and techniques. It is things such as being able to forge weld a wagon axle back together, how to make a froe, how to properly fuller, jump weld, (say a round bar to a plate at 90 degrees), and I think I will exempt horse shoeing. That is too horrid for me to think about.

[Spears]

This topic is so nervy it is deserving of a good story. I bought a gas forge and a couple of hammers because I always wanted to do blacksmithing. I had constructed an anvil and some tongs when I worked as a shop teacher by the way of machining and Mig welding. Up to that point, any forging had been done using an Oxy-ace torch for heat. I joined a forge group, attended meetings, and watched many demonstrations including Dan Boone in Novi Michigan. I fabricated an art piece after forging for about 3 months. Yes, only 3 months. I used everything I had available including my Mig welder and power sanders and grinders. I entered the piece in an art exhibit, not a blacksmith competition, and took first prize in sculpture. I was proud of myself and every blacksmith in the world with any heart at all should have been also. In writing I gave the forge group credit for the inspiration.

It was later I observed some negativity in their publication and was very confident it was directed toward me from maybe more than one member. How terrible. Was it that they felt threatened? How could those elite blacksmiths so great with all there genius knowledge placing them so high and mighty above all that only through them could I achieve anything be threatened? First of all, nobody likes cocky old timers. When I was a young machinist I also ran into a few old timer jack asses. My only concern was the promotion of Blacksmithing. Maybe their so advanced that they forgot the simple philosophy that you attract more flies with honey than vinegar. I don't need to start fights or point fingers. It is completely obvious that some people of this beautiful craft don't promote it, but rather destroy it.

Due to the fact it was needed for them to put it in writing, I can tell you what I didn't put in writing and that was my next membership check. I'm a metal artist and I do like forging. It's ok that a few members of the Blacksmithing communities don't think much of me or my art because the word traditional has different interpretations. That in itself has benefits. The more they tear me down, the more my ratings go up! Take care, and God Bless! Spears.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Pkrankow: I'd rather you didn't say "and this is a fact" especially when it's not. Can you substantiate in any way that placing your thumb on top of the hammer causes carpel tunnel syndrome? If it's a fact, it can be substantiated. It's most often caused by small rapid movements like typing and such.

[thecelticforge]

Spears, you are right! That is a good story. I have one similar. When I had just started my first shop, I was planning on joining a guild. So I made my offerings to the committee and put them in a bag to take to the meeting. I had some fair pieces that I was proud of, some I had saved for a couple of years, just to put in such a show.

However, there was one piece that I had forgotten was in the bag. A wee hair pin made out of 1/8th inch key stock with a copper aspen leaf at the end. It was a nice hair pin, my God Daughter wears it now, but it was not what I would consider a "masterpiece." I had made if for a tourist weeks before in about 8 minutes and she never came back and got it. The lady in charge of what table we set our things upon saw the hair pin and told me she like it and that I should leave it on the table also.

That dern thing won an award.

What I have been trying to say during all of this is that there are skills that we used before there was an industrial age. Many of these skills came only after years of practice; often under the guidance of some one more experienced. We can learn some of these skills here and there, but we have large gaps if we don't keep at it.

I know most if not all of these things can be replicated with modern equipment and I say: "So what." I use modern equipment and plan on getting more toys later. I love the stuff.

I just don't want the old knowledge to be lost for pong periods of time, or forever. Wootz metal is an excellent example. I have some scraps that were given to me years ago by a fellow faculty member visiting from Syria and I treasure them.

I don't and have not wanted to offend anyone. That was not my goal with this topic. I am just concerned that things that were needful for us to know years ago will not be forgotten. That is all.

[Mainely,Bob]

Pkrankow: I'd rather you didn't say "and this is a fact" especially when it's not. Can you substantiate in any way that placing your thumb on top of the hammer causes carpel tunnel syndrome? If it's a fact, it can be substantiated. It's most often caused by small rapid movements like typing and such.

Actually,putting your thumb on top of the handle can lead to tendonitis for some people.Easy to tell when you`re getting it,it feels like someone`s trying to rip out the tendon that runs down either the front or back of your thumb and along the wrist.
As Grant said, Carpal tunnel is a narrowing to the tunnel that encases the nerve that feeds the front of your hand thru the bones of the palm of your hand.That narrowing compresses and the nerve and leads to loss of feeling,tingling,and loss of grip and range of motion in the hand.They used to cut you open and manually widen the tunnel but can most times now do it with scopes and work thru smaller holes so it`s less invasive if caught soon enough.
My left hand carries the big whoppin` scars of the early surgeries,the right you have to look for the punctures of the later procedures.Recovery and PT from either is no fun in any case.
The way to avoid all this cutting and pain is to buy Uri Hofi`s DVD and learn how to hammer correctly on the initial go round and not injure yourself in the first place.

[pkrankow]

Pkrankow: I'd rather you didn't say "and this is a fact" especially when it's not. Can you substantiate in any way that placing your thumb on top of the hammer causes carpel tunnel syndrome? If it's a fact, it can be substantiated. It's most often caused by small rapid movements like typing and such.

My statement of "carpal tunnel" is unsubstantiated. I found several statements that that carpal tunnel causes are likely genetic, but ergonomics, proper breaks, etc. can prevent aggravation of symptoms

Hofi mentions nerve and tendon damage in his video. He also mentions protection of the limits of the wrist joint.

All statements regarding carpal tunnel that I located were part of advertising literature for anti-vibration framing hammers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpal_tunnel_syndrome
I link wikipedia because it is concise, I did find similar statements on several other reputable websites
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/carpal_tunnel/detail_carpal_tunnel.htm
http://www.assh.org/Public/HandConditions/Pages/CarpalTunnelSyndrome.aspx
http://www.medicinenet.com/carpal_tunnel_syndrome/article.htm

Phil

[tzonoqua]

Yes, I think we are losing things in some ways... and some ways no...

Over here in the UK one of the training schemes, NETS has recently had it's funding dropped, meaning closure of the course. Hopefully UK smiths can make enough noise to stop this from happening.

I was educated with an Arts Degree, so not much in the practical teaching of technique, but more about ideas, concepts, etc. You had to know how to talk the talk to back up the work. I was taught the basics... then just let loose on the forge. I sometimes lament that I should have done a more formal training in Blacksmithing.. but I didn't discover Blacksmithing until I did my Degree... ( I was silversmithing before) so I have to teach myself things when I come across something I don't know how to do. Which is where the internet, books, and people I know come into it. And yes, I do rely on my MIG welder way too much.. most of what I do is more sculptural than functional or "traditional" so I can get away with it for now.. I have great respect for those who do things the "traditional" way. Let's face it, a mortice and tenoned joint looks prettier than a weld any day of the week, even if the weld is immaculate. But I've seen some pretty amazing welded work also, it just depends on the final situation, the purpose etc.

As for your thumb on the hammer causing Carpal Tunnel... I've never hammered with my thumb on the hammer, but I've got CT. I've also got a hofi hammer, have had it for a few years, and have studied the technique, I'm aware of correct anvil height etc, but I still have CT. I had it initially when I was pregnant, and hadn't swung a hammer for a year previous. My mother had it too. My other work is computer based... there's a plethora of causes there... doesn't change the fact that it is extremely unpleasant. I wish Uri Hofi could save me...

I love my angle grinders... but I also have some nice swiss made files... every piece I make is finished with a file. Of course I go over bits that need going over with the grinder/flap disc, but I also always like to have a nice close slow inspection over my work with a file, I'm not a silly girl and going to sit and file something that can be quickly zapped with a flap disc, but the very fine details, the file is the last tool to touch my work...

:)

[Frank Turley]

Getting back to thecelticforge, I think I get the drift. To a degree, we are losing some persons who have learned old crafts through a lineage. Americans are tenacious though. A guy can get interested in a craft and get passionate about it, thereby learning lots about it.

The other side of the coin is that "we get too far from the tree," so to speak. I learned a little about log building from an expert, Peter Gott, from North Carolina. I took a one week class from him and traded two strap hinges and a door latch. I also put a slight camber in two of his broad axes*, and re tempered them. Peter used to snap a chalk line when squaring up a timber. Then he would score the log with a felling axe followed by "hewing to the line." with his broad axe. "Hew to the line" is an old timey expression which actually meant what it said. I just googled it, and got a misch masch of responses that had nothing to do with timbers. Most of the responses referred to sticking to your guns, letting the chips fall where they may, and other suchlike expressions. Too far from the tree, I say.

During the cabin workshop, one of the students asked Peter whether he was hewing to the line or the middle of the line. Peter said, "I'm hewing to the edge of the line." When he was finished, we all moved forward to have a look, and sure enough, he was hewing to the edge of the line. The guy was good.

*Peter liked to be able to lay the unbeveled side of the broad axe on a plane surface and have either end of the cutting edge rise off level about 1/8" or so. Therefore, the camber.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

[Sukellos]

Heck! I just do it for fun!

[ironstein]

What a great thread. When i started my apprenticeship in Ironwork 15 years ago there were alot of old timers who tortured me. Made me carry rebar until my shoulders bled, pretty much treated me like i was worthless. They all assumed i would never last, had no heart. The majority of them would never evolve and listen to an idea from a puke like me. They were stuck in their old ways. Don't get me wrong they had some great ideas. Imagine the shock when they came to work for me years later and were amazed to realize that i had improved, or completely innovated new ways to get the job done which were more efficient.
Don't get me wrong, i treasure the way those guys "broke" me in when i first started, they taught me some great lessons. It shames me to see the majority of the apprentices these days. I now have to take sensitivity foreman training, sexual harassment training etc. Guys complain about doing things the easy way. I sense the frustration that the old timers had with me when i first started, when we were doing things the hard way. I am one of only a few apprentices from back then that is still working in the Union. There are a few guys i remember who mentored me and helped make me the worker i am today.
Instead of becoming disillusioned and negative, if i find someone i deem worthy of my knowledge about rodbusting i will teach him all i can. Brian Brazeal said it best when i got to visit him. He told me that if i stuck with blacksmithing and put the effort in, i might be able to take it further than he ever could.
I think it is a shame that old techniques are being lost. Even more of a shame that so few people are willing to "work hard at work worth doing". To be honest, my generation (80s) and the newer generations seem to have no concept of the value of quality workmanship. I can understand why some of the true old school blacksmiths snub the newbies at times. I was horrified at Frank Turleys story of the student asking the smith who was nice enough to share his work if it came from mexico.
I think the old school blacksmithing is more alive than we think, but are there many people worthy of the teachings? Thats the question.

[JeremyP]

Im certain this discussion has been going on for hundreds of years, and in the next 100 years the future metal workers will be worried that no one arc welds anymore.

That being said I hold great value in learning the old skills and techniques because of the evolution it represents to the trade of working metal. We didn't get to where we are now without the smiths before us trying new things and pushing the limits of possibily.

As with all modern technology, it takes for granted the skills and knowledge obtained from generations before to be able to create and accomplish what we can today.

Soon when 3d printing technology advances to such a degree that we simply molecularily 'print off' steel components with near perfect accuracy we will take for granted that legions of works used to manually weld pieces of steel together to form modern day components and structures, just as many metalworkers today do not realize that legions of smiths use to hand make every single nail that went into building a house.

Modern arc welding is no doubt a quicker more efficient way to join metal than the older joinery methods, but it also brought about newer possibilities with steel that we didnt have before. We can now join miles of pipeline together, we can now assemble huge vessels to store pressurized liquids and gasses, the list goes on.

In its shadow, some of the old ways got pushed aside, but rather than be forgotten, those old tools and techniques evolved, rather than being used exclusivly for practical purposes, the old ways can now be explored in a new light, as a means to create art for example, or in the modern design of steel components. Combined with modern technology we yet again push the envelope of possibility, in art and in industry.

[thecelticforge]

Getting back to thecelticforge, I think I get the drift. To a degree, we are losing some persons who have learned old crafts through a lineage. Americans are tenacious though. A guy can get interested in a craft and get passionate about it, thereby learning lots about it.

The other side of the coin is that "we get too far from the tree," so to speak. I learned a little about log building from an expert, Peter Gott, from North Carolina. I took a one week class from him and traded two strap hinges and a door latch. I also put a slight camber in two of his broad axes*, and re tempered them. Peter used to snap a chalk line when squaring up a timber. Then he would score the log with a felling axe followed by "hewing to the line." with his broad axe. "Hew to the line" is an old timey expression which actually meant what it said. I just googled it, and got a misch masch of responses that had nothing to do with timbers. Most of the responses referred to sticking to your guns, letting the chips fall where they may, and other suchlike expressions. Too far from the tree, I say.

During the cabin workshop, one of the students asked Peter whether he was hewing to the line or the middle of the line. Peter said, "I'm hewing to the edge of the line." When he was finished, we all moved forward to have a look, and sure enough, he was hewing to the edge of the line. The guy was good.

*Peter liked to be able to lay the unbeveled side of the broad axe on a plane surface and have either end of the cutting edge rise off level about 1/8" or so. Therefore, the camber.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

Okay, all of this being said: Frank, I am sorry, but we can not allow you to die till we all catch up. :)

[Mainely,Bob]

I can remember one old white haired codger that I flat out hated at first.
One of the first things Whitey did was to confiscate my pair of slip joint pliers.He told me they were only good for two things and rounding the heads of bolts was one of them,I soon found out what the other one was.
Whitey carried my pliers in the pocket of his coveralls where I could see them whenever I worked with him.He was the kind of a guy who would only show and/or tell you something once and he always said"Now pay attention here" before he did it.Once he explained and showed you something you were on your own while he watched.If I deviated from his instructions then he pulled out the pliers,rapped me on the hand with them and said" That`s NOT what I showed/told you".
Now Whitey was a little skinny old guy and I was a bigger than average,long hared,tattooed kid who had more than my fair share of street experience so it was just a matter of time before I got fed up and snatched those pliers away from him and asked him why I shouldn`t smack him a time or two with `em.He just smiled and told me"Go ahead if you really want to,but if you do it will be the last time I or anyone else here will work with you or show you a xxxx thing".
I thought about if for a couple of minutes and then handed them back to him.I got my knuckles rapped less often from then on.
I learned a lot from Whitey,or as I later called him "The White Man", and came to look upon him as one of my mentors.I was very sad to hear of his passing.

[ThomasPowers]

One thing I see reading this thread is "the WHY". Lots of things were done a particular way in old times for a *reason* and often the process may be passed on and not the reason. Old books often give methods and not the *WHY*

With the change in equipment and materials (and smithing had some big changes! In the: early middle ages---the catalan forge, high middle ages---use of coal for forging, renaissance---indirect method of smelting iron, 1700's---cast steel and smelting with coke, and late 19th century---bessemer process, open hearth process, etc); sometimes the methods that used to be a key part of making a quality item no longer applied and sometimes could even be a problem if still used.

An easy example of this is the care and feeding of real wrought iron where you would avoid punching holes where strength was needed as the fibers in WI would be messed up and so for something like an eye bending the piece around and forge welding it was better. (with modern steels your forge weld would probably be more of a problem than just punching and dressing the eye!)

What's amusing is sometimes people do something someway by rote and then try to back figure a *why* for it and then present it as a hard fact when often the explanations are quite "off" indeed!

[ironstein]

I like that story Mainely,Bob!
I have a similar one. When i was an apprentice i had a brand new pair of pliers. We were tying rebar and i was gettin pretty fast. I am a left hander and i always caught flack from everyone. They would try to say that i was slower because i didn't tie rebar right handed. Anyway, the foreman who i already disliked profusely, came walking over and told me to give him my pliers. Mind you i was 6'2" and about 230 pounds, not an ounce of fat on me. I asked him why he wanted my pliers. He threw some expletives i cannot repeat here and said i still had the spring in my pliers and he was gonna remove it. I took a step forward and was a few inches from him and i told him he could take the spring out of my pliers but when he finished i was gonna hit him over the head with them! Needless to say he didn't take the spring out of my pliers. From then on he used me to break in other apprentices and nicknamed me "animal". I learned alot from him.