recycled steels to use for forge welding

[Brasilikilt]

Hey all

Just a quick question:

I have bits and pieces of all sorts of stuff kicking around, and was wondering what the best steel combination would be for a new guy getting a decent billet of steel welded up in a coal forge.

I have a lot of A36 and 1020 mild steel, leaf springs, a whole bucket full of used De Walt sawz-all blades, railroad spikes and I can probably also dig up some old dull name brand files.

I know already to get my metal very clean, and have familiarized myself with the colors to look for when heating up the metal and have already done some successful practice welds.... Right now it's simply a matter of tack-welding a stack of different steels together at work, firing up the forge and just doing it.

Would perhaps mild steel and leaf spring (5160) be a good first billet weld with a likely chance of a decent blade??

Thanks for your help

[Rich Hale]

Poor chance of a good blade from that for this reason..1050 steel in my opinion is on the lower end of carbon content for a knfe. However if it ws going to be a big knife or sord it may possibly work. When you add mild to it it reduces the overall carbon content
more yet. If you weld a quarter inch thick piece of 1050 to the same thickness of mild you cut the carbon content roughly half. For me I would try and get new steels and weld a predictble billet together. It is simply not and easy taask to make a nice billet.
When yu learn to value your time new steel is a bargain. A favorite mix of mine is 1084 and 15N20 both of which make a good blade on there own and weld together with a minimum of fuss. And the heat treat from both steelas aer similiar and that makes life good. WEld up a stack of whatever yo have arouing the house.. do at least one billet a day. You do not want to still be having rouitine or prep issues when you make a billet for a knife..WElding often will speed the learning alot.

[pkrankow]

Those saw blades are your best bet. Clean, stack and bind. Still may not be good knife steel so test the hardenability after you get a billet, and before you go crazy on it.
Phil

[ThomasPowers]

My favorite futzing around billet is bandsaw blade and pallet strapping---start with 20 layers and go *up*!

It's a bit harder to start off with especially in a coal forge as the thin layers are more prone to burning; but once you get it down it works a treat and shows good definition when etched.

Sizing the billet for the forge is important as to start off you may want to do small billets that can be welded in one heat and then stack them for more mass. If you need to goose the Carbon up a bit old files are usually quite high carbon. It's suggested you grind them smooth before using so as to not trap crud in the weld in the teeth. (I have a store of old "Black Diamond" files that are supposedly 1.2% C and so make a great donor material---or center layer for San Mai.

[Brasilikilt]

Thanks for the information everyone!

I like the idea of the saw blades as I have the De Walt blades, and can get broken band saw blades and pallet strapping from work.
I'm surprised to hear that 5160 and Mild steel don't make a good blade as I've heard that combination mentioned to me a few times by other smiths saying that the hard and soft layers create a kind of micro saw action.

I never thought about the mild steel taking carbon away from the 5160, but I guess it does make sense.

I've already gotten a few of those blades to stick together, but I did burn a few of them in the process. it seems like a tightly bound stack of alternating saw blades and pallet strapping might be a good route for me to take.

Thanks for the info.I'll write later but now I have to go to work

Iain

[pkrankow]

You can always make decorative PW and use it for things other than blades.
Phil

[ThomasPowers]

One thing about BSB & PS: if you weld up the ends of the billet then when you start to heat it the outer layers tend to bow out as they heat faster than the center layers and they are trapped by the welds. I'd only weld one end---to a handle and wire the other end so you can flux and push them back straight and back into the fire.

Good pallet strapping is not mild---do the quench and break test to check.

Also once welded up in thin layers it only takes about *4* times to welding heat to equalize the carbon across the billet. Other alloying elements are MUCH slower to migrate.

[pkrankow]

http://www.lehigh.edu/symposium/2009/rceas/attach/NizolekPoster.pdf
http://easternny.asminternational.org/static/Static%20Files/IP/Magazine/AMP/V167/I02/amp16702p24.pdf?authtoken=ff40179c124d273467b5eb4e028279c54915de86

Some reading about what Thomas mentioned.
Phil

[Brasilikilt]

Thanks again to everyone for chiming in to answer my questions!

I agree that buying new steel is definitely a bargain compared to driving around expending time and gas to search out scrap piles that might yield just a small amount of good metal.
I basically am stuck at a point where I need to make a little money to put back into my hobby as I already have a few people who have seen my blades asking to buy pattern-welded stuff. I realize that producing an acceptable pattern welded billet will take time and practice, so I am simply trying to make do with what I have on hand, or can get for very cheap or free.

I burned the paint off of some of those Sawzall blades last night and will take some sand paper to them to get them cleaner...I did also pick up 4 or 5 pieces of strapping used to bind a few Schedule 80 pipes from work, so I figure that might be some decent material to start with.

I'm also probably going to grind the teeth off of an old file and see if I can get it to stick to some leaf spring to see if that works.

These are really good suggestions, and I know this will help out a lot.

Take care and thanks again....I will keep you posted with my results.

Iain

[FredW]

If you layer the 5160 on the outside of the billet you will always have the 5160 in the center as you fold and weld the billet. 5160 makes great knives and there should be at least a little contrast as they will both etch differently. 5160 is a chromium steel so will not etch like the mild. Could make a nice blade.In a sence all you would be using the mild steel for is to contrast the 5160. This guy does a lot of knives using low carbon steel and does a very nice job. http://www.aescustomknives.com/


Fred

[jason0012]

I have welded a LOT of bandsaw blade damascus. I have also used quite a lot of files and leaf spring. 5160 makes a fine blade, in damascus will etch a light grey. The file steel will etch a dark grey-almost black. I dont usually weld up anything with mildsteel aside from nickle or stainless. It really detracts from the blades hardness considerably. I have rarely ground the teeth off of files also, only when they are really deep or some special gnarly form like aluminum files or milled files. most surface crud gets burned off in the fire, and anything left gets washed out by the flux(that's what its for) The bandsaw blade was my primary damascus material before I owned a power hammer. I started with an average of 21 layers so triple twice and then double and I have about half the forging in on the piece as I would if starting with 5-7 layers. Welding thin stock is a quick way to get layer count up without working yourself to death. You could also try some shim stock. At work I see spring steel shim stock in .002-.065 thicknesses. (I have never used it but always meant to) The real thin stuff could get a whole bunch of layers in a single weld (50-150). Working by hand I always found about a 3-4 cubic inch billet to be a good starting size(1x1x3-4)

[Steve Sells]

... This guy does a lot of knives using low carbon steel and does a very nice job. http://www.aescustomknives.com/
Fred

Where did it state he used mild steels for knife blades? I missed that part... but he does have some nice blades

[pkrankow]

Where did it state he used mild steels for knife blades? I missed that part... but he does have some nice blades

http://www.aescustomknives.com/docs/gallery.htm
most are San Mai, 1010/1070 PW on a 52100 or 5160 core.
Phil

[ThomasPowers]

52100 and 5160 are NOT low carbon! And they form the knife edge in san mai. So calling them low carbon steel knives is sort of like putting a VW body over a Porsche frame and engine and then saying it's a VW.

[FredW]

Anything 1020 or less would be considered mild steel. 1010 especially. As far as I know, mild steel is a general term and have never heard of any specific specs on it, never looked either. Needless to say, mix the 1010 with the 5160 and you can get pretty good looking damascus, and if done right a really good blade. As long as the 5160 is in the core you are fine.

Fred

[jake3330]

would o1 tool steel and mild steel make a good damascus?

[Brasilikilt]

Just to let you all know, I did manage to get a few layers of leaf spring and old files to sandwich and stick together.

The billet is NOT pretty, but it's a start....I am saving pallet strapping from work in preparation for welding those. I'll keep you all posted.

Thanks to everyone here for providing the info as it did help a lot.

Iain

[jake3330]

hey its strapping is so easy to weld up and its hardenable and it etches dark grey pretty good steal for stuff people just throw away im gunna use that and o1 on my first damascus cause i realized 01 etches jet black o this is the piece of strapping i tested for etching

[ThomasPowers]

Think about adding some bandsaw blade that etches bright silver to the mix.

[MattBower]

hey its strapping is so easy to weld up and its hardenable and it etches dark grey pretty good steal for stuff people just throw away im gunna use that and o1 on my first damascus cause i realized 01 etches jet black o this is the piece of strapping i tested for etching

Speaking as an old fogey (a whole 39 years of age), I'd like to suggest that your posts would be much easier to follow, and thus much more likely to draw responses, if you'd observe a few of the English language's more basic conventions. Dividing your thoughts into sentences, with capital letters at their beginnins and periods at their ends, would absolutely work wonders. If you can't manage the capital letters, the periods alone would be very helpful.

[jake3330]

this is how most kids my age talk i think u can handle it were u trying to insult me or something? just asking because ur not very good at it

[Guest]

this is how most kids my age talk i think u can handle it were u trying to insult me or something? just asking because ur not very good at it

You were asked to attempt to make posts in a manner following common English practice. Since your reply makes it clear you should be able to write in this language, then we can only assume you are being rude, please try to act a bit more adult. This website has members from all over the world, many do not read English, and translator programs have a problem with your "style" of posting

[ThomasPowers]

Just a tip: If you are asking *other* people to spend *their* time helping you; it behooves you to make it as easily as possible for them.

Of course if you are willing to pay people for the time they spend helping---sure make it as difficult as you like/can afford!

As to that is how most kids your age think/talk---most kids your age don't speak english! It's the world wide web you know!

[reefera4m]

WHooYAAA Moderator! Well put and appropriate. Thank you from the otherwise 'silent' majority!