Pattern for Rose Petals

[Bentiron1946]

Here is a short clip on youtube by Luis Moreno from Argentina. The clip used to be longer but it shows how to make one out of silver but I have made one out of copper.

[Fe-Wood]

Thanks for all the great info!!

I've been working on mine and have been struggling a bit with the petals

John B.
To bad you don't teach a class in Northern California, looks like you had some great success' with the attendees.

[John B]

I did wonder if I had posted this in the right place to be useful, or if it would have been better to start a new post re making roses.

If you are having difficulty with your petals, Try forming them in a swage or a use a ring and depress the petal leaf section into the hollow centre using a small round/ball end leafing hammer, This will cup them up and start to give a bowl like shape to the leaf of the petal.

[Fe-Wood]

My issues are more of a annealing and a skill problem
I started out making 10 sets of copper petals and steel stems. I used Mark Aspery's stem pattern and made the tooling to go with it. I also made the dapping tools in his utube clip.
I cut the petals out on the bandsaw as suggested in this thread and tried to anneal them all at once in a basket in my forge.... No, I didn't melt them I turned the fire way down and covered the basket to deflect the flame. Turns out I didn't let them soak long enough (for fear of melting them) and when I started to dish them several of the petals cracked from work hardening. At this point, I have 6 crack free sets of petals and 2 set with cracks and 2 that were sacrificed for practice. I'm thinking about a nice copper leaf design to use and how to make them, so I haven't done anymore work on them lately but I should try to finish for valentines day.....

I've attached a couple pictures...

[John B]

My issues are more of a annealing and a skill problem
I started out making 10 sets of copper petals and steel stems. I used Mark Aspery's stem pattern and made the tooling to go with it. I also made the dapping tools in his utube clip.
I cut the petals out on the bandsaw as suggested in this thread and tried to anneal them all at once in a basket in my forge.... No, I didn't melt them I turned the fire way down and covered the basket to deflect the flame. Turns out I didn't let them soak long enough (for fear of melting them) and when I started to dish them several of the petals cracked from work hardening. At this point, I have 6 crack free sets of petals and 2 set with cracks and 2 that were sacrificed for practice. I'm thinking about a nice copper leaf design to use and how to make them, so I haven't done anymore work on them lately but I should try to finish for valentines day.....

I've attached a couple pictures...

I would agree it looks like an annealing problem, I would suggest the ones that cracked were at too high a heat,(Probably the exposed outer ones in your casket arrangement)

I would also suggest quenching them in clean cold water to anneal them instead of allowing them to cool slowly as I am guessing you did

What thickness of copper were you using? Although that should not make any difference to the process, I use from 20swg through to 3mm plus,

If I anneal copper in my gas forge, I place a number of the cut out blanks on a slice (merely a flat plate 1/8" thick or thereabouts) on a longish handle to avoid the Dragons breath, you can then observe the colour range, then when they get to red, withdraw and let them slide off the slice into a container of clean cold water, they should become soft and flexible (If not, raise the temperature for the next lot, you will soon get a feel for the colour of heat that works best), then I place the next lot on to the already preheated slice, put them in the forge and repeat the process until all are done,
If I am doing repousse on large areas of copper, I would heat it over the coke forge or use a large blowlamp. For smaller items either the gas forge or a plumbers type torch will work well.

I have never had problems with cracking unless I intentionally work the outer edges of the petals to give them a ragged natural look like you see on carnations or rununculas (Same as a rose to make but more petal layers and crimping)

You can usually tell when the copper is hard by flexing it or the feel of it when you are working it, then reanneal it.

That is one of the plusses when you use the second method I described, as you can access the tenon to rivet the petals onto, and then you are annealing each petal as you work it up into position using a torch to heat each section you are working

A little tip here, you can use a small thickish washer to fit over the tenon and sandwich the leaves in position, then using a piece of steel with a clearance hole in, (to place as a shroud around this washer and protect the copper leaves from direct heat) then you can use a welding torch to heat the tenon that is protruding and rivet it in position, this eliminates direct heat onto the copper petals which may melt the copper if you are using an oxy/acet rig

When this is secure, I use a plumbers torch to heat the top layer of petals, (Which will soften the copper again, just let them air cool this time, as you can work on them immediately) and using a screwdriver as a pry if necessary, and two pairs of round nosed tongs or circlip pliers, manipulate and arrange each leaf part into its required position. (You can also do this with steel petals at red heat)

By using two pirs of tongs it is easier to flex the petal into a curved / wavy edge shape

Then move on to each layer and repeat the heat and manipulate process

Good luck with it, I look forward to seeing some pictures.

[Fe-Wood]

A little tip here, you can use a small thickish washer to fit over the tenon and sandwich the leaves in position, then using a piece of steel with a clearance hole in, (to place as a shroud around this washer and protect the copper leaves from direct heat) then you can use a welding torch to heat the tenon that is protruding and rivet it in position, this eliminates direct heat onto the copper petals which may melt the copper if you are using an oxy/acet rig

When this is secure, I use a plumbers torch to heat the top layer of petals, (Which will soften the copper again, just let them air cool this time, as you can work on them immediately) and using a screwdriver as a pry if necessary, and two pairs of round nosed tongs or circlip pliers, manipulate and arrange each leaf part into its required position. (You can also do this with steel petals at red heat)

I'm not sure I follow what you are talking about here. The washer stays as part of the rose? Thats a great idea on the shroud. I did melt one petal slightly.

I was wondering if I got the Copper to hot. I do a fair bit of Copper work and have never had an issue with over heating but as you can see in the picture I had quite a few pieces in the basket and some did get quite hot. I do quench in water.

When I finish I will show pictures....

[Fe-Wood]

Oh I almost forgot, Thank you John!!!!

I'm using 16 ounce (.54863mm) and 32 ounce (1.0922mm) scrap copper.

[John B]

I'm not sure I follow what you are talking about here. The washer stays as part of the rose? Thats a great idea on the shroud. I did melt one petal slightly.

I was wondering if I got the Copper to hot. I do a fair bit of Copper work and have never had an issue with over heating but as you can see in the picture I had quite a few pieces in the basket and some did get quite hot. I do quench in water.

When I finish I will show pictures....

Too hot and the copper deteriorates and will not anneal again, I think that was the problem,

With regard to the washer, I use some 3/6" or 1/2" diameter bar about 1/8" thick with a hole through the centre(ish) to accommodate the tenon on the stem, slightly chamfer the front to allow the rivetting to seat right in, the finished rivetting, can be left or centrepunch textured to give the appearance of a flower centre,
I use this to centre to stick my bit of felt pad to before applying the rose oil.

I will try to get a few pictures to try and illustrate what I mean.

[John B]

Right, here we go if it works, and an expansion on making flowers.

The rose template can be used for other applicatiosn such as poppies and more.

I have attached a picture of a poppy I made many years ago showing the use of a washer as a flower centre feature when textured, with a round headed rivet holding the petals, to give a centre to the flower

The washer / collar itself is also shown in relation to the template I use to mark out for a centre petal, the template is 1/8" plate and the hole through should be chamfered

In the other pics I have tried to show how it sits in the rose, where the felt pad is fitted, and how the petals are then closed up to conceal the pad.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Nice work John B. I like seeing the forge welded branches.
I've also used pennies or dimes as washers for copper roses.

[Fe-Wood]

Oh, Very nice John! The washer adds a nice bit of detail.

Thanks for expanding on the copper overheating. I had read about this happening but I have never had it happen before. (chalk one up to experiance) I usually heat to a low to medium red and quench. There were a few pieces that had gone to almost a white red (if that makes sence) before I pulled them out of the fire. Once this happens, they are ruined huh, can they be melted down to regain the ductility. I have several pounds of scrap and have been thinking about making some ingots/billets for forging.

[John B]

Thanks BrianB, Yes you can make them out of most old disc shaped things, the old penny washers don't even need drilling, just slit with a thin blade and form up, the discs can be all the same size, and I usually go for 3 to 4 layer petals in the smaller sizes, make great rosebuds.


Hi Fe-W To be honest, I have never tried re casting copper, brass and other bits yes, but not copper, put up a search or post a new thread, someone out there should know the answer, I would think its not as straight forward as recasting brass/bronze or aluminium

[Sukellos]

I finally broke out the camera. Here's the pattern with an example of the finished product.

The blossoms are about 2.5 to 3 inches diam.

[John B]

Good looking pair of roses, They will make a nice Rose Bed

[Avadon]

Excellent roses throughout. Really impressive. I've made several myself. There are lots of ways to do them and most of them look quite well when finished. The stem way is probably the best. But i've done some where I just drilled holes in them and welded each petal plate ontop of the other. One time I had no choice put to forge each petal independently and weld them on one at a time. That was laboriously painful!! Roses are one of those things where if it looks right to you than it is right. Even if your a total noob to blacksmithing I think a rose is a must-do beginner project as it really helps you understand how the hammer moves the metal.

The first pattern "R1", which I actually use the sepals from a lotus mandala is my favorite. This pattern is tride and true and i've used it several times and it always produces really perfect petals. You can make them less pointy if you like, but it gives a very rose petal shape. So I've used this one quite a bit. I used it when I was making petals that went around a 1.5" pipe. But you can change that inner portion to however you see fit.

Also the lotus flower tips work pretty well if you like a sharper look. For something simpler try that 42rose.gif in the red square on it's angle. If you don't like any of these try google images and search for "Rose mandala", "Rose Shape", or "Rose Pattern" and you can get some decent shapes. The last one is a picture of a rose itself. It's important to get that spiraling effect. If your roses are to symmetrical they will look more man-made, symbolic, or iconic which might be perfect if that's what your shooting for. If your trying to go for realism make sure you do a lot of overlapping and using scissor style tongs to tweak a lot of the petals so the edges are curled downward perfect. Also a light texturing is worth the price of admission Studying roses online before your final shaping will help. Also you have to remember that if your making 5 different discs it's best to scale five different shapes in photoshop then cut out your templates and transfer that pattern with sharpie onto the metal to cut out. It will give you a more realistic rose.

[clinton]

here is one that i made for my valentines gift to my sweetheart this is the pattern that jere kirkpatric sells its been sitting on my work bench for about 8 years now finnaly got around to using it, i used a stainless stem kinda hard to get it headed off tight

[Fe-Wood]

Ok, So I started this thread thinking I would whip up a dozen roses from copper for the wife. Well.....
Its been a bit over a month of working here and there on them and I finally finished what I could. I think I will try and add leaves and such but for now here they are.
Recap of my learning process.
-Spend the time making sure the pattern is good. In this instance, I should have made one trial Rose because the patterns didn't line up all that well... To me anyway-
-Annealing the copper in bulk cost more time and added to the failure rate far in excess of the time saved.
-I ended up with some nice Dapping tools and clean Hammer Heads.
All in all a fun and at times frustrating project.

So, I started with ten sets (all the biggest scrap I had) and ended up with 5 complete Roses. My failures came from over heating the copper during the anneal process.

The vase is spun copper with a Mahogany stem. Total hight is 10"

Feed Back?

[Mills]

Good work. That'll get you brownie points I'm sure.

I am interested in the vase you put them in. How'd you do it? Spun copper, this goes back to the spinning discussions before the Great White .. Birch got after Frosty, correct? That is real nice.

[Michael]

Couple weeks ago I showed up at a Craigslist sale for an old toolbox full of saws. I passed on the saws (modern and trashed) but did buy off the workbench a pile of rose petal blanks (9 complete, couple more partials) for $20. The seller was the widow of a blacksmith, said his name was Rob (or Rod) Waller and he was active in California Blacksmith Association and the Crucible in Oakland.

I did a little Googling and couldn't find anything on him, I was wondering if anyone knows about him?

Now I just need to find some forge time to get working on some Roses!

[Fe-Wood]

Good work. That'll get you brownie points I'm sure.

I am interested in the vase you put them in. How'd you do it? Spun copper, this goes back to the spinning discussions before the Great White .. Birch got after Frosty, correct? That is real nice.

Mills
Thanks!
I did do the vase on my "old" lathe when I started the roses back in January. What more would you like to know?

Michael-
Never heard of Mr. Waller, California is a big old state....