hillsideshortleg Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 On a self contained hammer that has a motor mounted on the back, I would like to know (short answer or long) how they work. Is it all Mechanical,Air or air over hydraulic. Is the motor driving a crank which is running a rod on a air cylinder then the air flow & psi running the ram. Has anyone ever built a junk yard hammer like this using off the self or out of the mud common parts: Crank shaft & bearings? Thanks Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 On a self contained hammer that has a motor mounted on the back, I would like to know (short answer or long) how they work. Is it all Mechanical,Air or air over hydraulic. Is the motor driving a crank which is running a rod on a air cylinder then the air flow & psi running the ram. Has anyone ever built a junk yard hammer like this using off the self or out of the mud common parts: Crank shaft & bearings? Thanks Rick The short answer.... 1) all air 2) Yes 3) Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillsideshortleg Posted January 2, 2010 Author Share Posted January 2, 2010 The short answer.... 1) all air 2) Yes 3) Yes How can I find which off the shelf /out of the mud parts are best to build the thing around? Is there plans for this type of hammer? Thanks for the help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 On a self contained hammer that has a motor mounted on the back, I would like to know (short answer or long) how they work. Is it all Mechanical,Air or air over hydraulic. Is the motor driving a crank which is running a rod on a air cylinder then the air flow & psi running the ram. Has anyone ever built a junk yard hammer like this using off the self or out of the mud common parts: Crank shaft & bearings? Thanks Rick The long answer (As I understand it, I am far from a hammer expert) For the sake of the explanation I'll talk about my Nazel simply because I grasp it the best, The Chambersburg and Say Mak work principally the same way. The Nazel has a straight cut pinion mounted on a motor that drives a massive cogged flywheel, in the case of my 3B is a 10HP motor.. Thats pretty astounding since a 110lb Sahinler uses a 10 HP motor, gives a good representation of how efficient a direct drive low pressure system compared to a belt drive high pressure system. So the flywheel is connected to a crank that drives a connecting rod and piston. That piston/cylinder located in the rear of the hammer frame generates the air required to move the hammer ram. There are two rotary actuated cylinder valves that control control air to both sides of the hammer ram. The air is directed to either side of the ram to control how much and how fast the ram moves. It should also be noted that the compressor and the ram have a one to one relationship. The air the compressor makes in one stroke relates to one movement of the ram up or down, there is no stored air, any excess is dumped. It is a deceptively simple system, as simple systems are often very delicate. The pressure and timing of the air is ultra critical to hammer control, and without control the hammer cannot be used effectively for open die work. I believe (although I do not know) that the valving is very similar on all cast frame hammers.. the Nazel, Chambersburg, Massey, Striker, Anyang and other several dozen manufactures all had some sort of two rotary valve control. The fabricated more modern hammers typically have a single rotary valve that controls air to both sides of the ram but it does the same thing, just a more complex part. So its all air... there is no mechanical or hydraulic connection between any moving/rotating part and the ram/die.. all the forces generated are from air pressure acting on the ram... There have been efforts to build self contained JYH machines... I have not seen one personally but have heard of several. There us a book by a fellow that built one and recorded the process...Mark Krause I think was his name.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillsideshortleg Posted January 2, 2010 Author Share Posted January 2, 2010 (edited) Is the stokes per minute fixed on the cylinder that is driven off the motor or is it some way variable. Does anyone know what the average stroke lenght and diameter and strokes per minute is on the first cylinder. Thanks this is neat site Rick Edited October 13, 2013 by Moderator54 Edited for relevance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Is the stokes per minute fixed on the cylinder that is driven off the motor or is it some way variable. Does anyone know what the average stroke lenght and diameter and strokes per minute is on the first cylinder. Thanks this is neat site Ric the bpm is fixed. The only way to change the bpm is to change the compresser speed as they are one to one. Slow the motor down with a VFD and you can reduce the bpm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Is the stokes per minute fixed on the cylinder that is driven off the motor or is it some way variable. Does anyone know what the average stroke lenght and diameter and strokes per minute is on the first cylinder. Thanks this is neat site Rick There is no average. It is based on the size and style of the hammer. The ram bore could vary from 3" to 30" the stroke from 2" to 4 feet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chichi Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 I believe there is a very talented guy,John Larsen(sp?) who has made hammers based on the Nazel principle. He has a shop somewhere out east (Mass.?) Mark Krause is also a great source. He put out a pamphlet on how he made his. I made one but oversized the ram piston relative to the drive piston so results were poor. I got tired of the project and quit,in part, because I did not like the long connecting rod on the back of the hammer which was driven directly from the motor ie. no fly wheel. I have a flywheel but did not get back to the project.I doubt you will find any other resources because I have asked similar questions. PM me if you want more info. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Why do you want to build a self contained hammer? If it is because you don't want to spend the money on a compressor I would recommend building a tire hammer I tried one of the ones Clay Spencer is building at Quad State and was quite impressed with the control. There are advantages to self contained hammers over Utility hammers but I am not sure the extra work and experimentation necesary in building one is worth it vs. building a utility hammer. I bought the book from Mark Krause and thought about building a self contained hammer but ended up building a utility hammer. There is some machining required to build the valving. You could probably buy Mark Krause's book from Bob Bergman at Postville blacksmith shop if you still want to go ahead, see the link in the recent Nazel thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 I believe (although I do not know) that the valving is very similar on all cast frame hammers.. the Nazel, Chambersburg, Massey, Striker, Anyang and other several dozen manufactures all had some sort of two rotary valve control. The valving on the Massey is actually a spool valve with a number of check valves built into the spool. The Nazel rotary valve is simpler but the basic principal of the two cylinders is the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Here's the thread from back when I started asking the same questions. Has answers to some of your questions. I'm about 3/4 of the way thru building a 125# self contained, of a fairly simple design. Don't know if it'll work yet or not. I've designed the frame and ram guides so that I can unbolt the self contained parts and add a utility type hammer cylinder if it is unsatisfactory. I used some parts off of a punch press that I converted to hydraulics for the back end of the hammer. Please note that this is a bit of a fool's errand. I'm just doing it to see if I can, to learn, for the fun of it. I've already got a bunch of mechanical hammers that are perfectly functional, and I've got the mill and big lathe needed to machine parts. This is NOT a way to save money. It would be cheaper to save pennies/make stuff for sale and buy a functional hammer out right than spend the hundreds of hours of time to make one. BUT... boy it's fun to make stuff, and there is that satisfaction in knowing you did it yourself! Let us all know how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Mike Spencer's journey was real interesting do what you can with what you have engineering to bring back the A&O hammer. Thats my kind of tire hammer! I was curious if you had any pictures of your progress with the 125#? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillsideshortleg Posted January 3, 2010 Author Share Posted January 3, 2010 Why do you want to build a self contained hammer? If it is because you don't want to spend the money on a compressor I would recommend building a tire hammer I tried one of the ones Clay Spencer is building at Quad State and was quite impressed with the control. There are advantages to self contained hammers over Utility hammers but I am not sure the extra work and experimentation necesary in building one is worth it vs. building a utility hammer. I bought the book from Mark Krause and thought about building a self contained hammer but ended up building a utility hammer. There is some machining required to build the valving. You could probably buy Mark Krause's book from Bob Bergman at Postville blacksmith shop if you still want to go ahead, see the link in the recent Nazel thread. Because im an idiot! I have a lathe & milling machine and an 6" dia. double rod air cylinder with a 3' stroke. I was thinking about splitting the cylinder in two and building a couple of blind ends and a piston to create 2 cylinders. I bought the cylinder 30 years ago and I have to use it. Compressor and shop run on 15 hp phase converter that I dont like hearing run. I have never even used a power hammer but I am set on building one. Bult a forge and didnt like all the hand pounding when I know there is a machine that is faster and stronger. Am I beating my head against the anvil when I should be looking at the wheel hammer. also can you build a 100 lb wheel hammer? Also I enjoy building things. Thanks for any advice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 The Massey hammers use a very complicated vertical valve, which gives a fully variable single blow. Its an object of joy to use as the ram moves in exact proportion to the handlever at any speed (including dead stop at any point in the stroke). Kind of like a hydraulic ram! It does this by channeling some of the air from the compressor piston into an internal resovior. Im not aware of 'high pressure' or 'low pressure' operating designs on self contined hammers. The HP differences must be down to the different valves. The 75kg (165lb) anyang uses 10 hp. 55kg Massey 7 hp. Dont know why the sahindler is so high??? Whats the ram weight on a '3B'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 My name is John Larson, I'm located in Baltimore, Maryland. I've built self-contained hammers big and small. I prefer to build and sell and use utility hammers. The amount of study and investment to build a self-contained hammer is high, but so too any style of hammer. Enjoy the journey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hofi Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 The ''sahinler'' in America is using 10 hp because it is America in Israel and Europe it is no more then 5 hp and at my smithy too Hofi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 The Massey hammers use a very complicated vertical valve, which gives a fully variable single blow. Its an object of joy to use as the ram moves in exact proportion to the handlever at any speed (including dead stop at any point in the stroke). Kind of like a hydraulic ram! It does this by channeling some of the air from the compressor piston into an internal resovior. Im not aware of 'high pressure' or 'low pressure' operating designs on self contined hammers. The HP differences must be down to the different valves. The 75kg (165lb) anyang uses 10 hp. 55kg Massey 7 hp. Dont know why the sahindler is so high??? Whats the ram weight on a '3B'? Ram on my 3B is 265lbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 The Massey hammers use a very complicated vertical valve, which gives a fully variable single blow. Its an object of joy to use as the ram moves in exact proportion to the handlever at any speed (including dead stop at any point in the stroke). Kind of like a hydraulic ram! It does this by channeling some of the air from the compressor piston into an internal resovior. Im not aware of 'high pressure' or 'low pressure' operating designs on self contined hammers. The HP differences must be down to the different valves. The 75kg (165lb) anyang uses 10 hp. 55kg Massey 7 hp. Dont know why the sahindler is so high??? Whats the ram weight on a '3B'? As far as the pressures go its an assumption based on compressor bore and ram bore sizes... My 200lb Chambersburg has about a 10" cylinder bore and the compressor is not much smaller... So lots of surface area and can operate at a relatively low pressure (high volume) The Say Mak 110 lb hammer has a ram bore of about 6.5 inches and a compressor bore thats about 5.5".... So just based on the surface area... about 80 sq inches on a 180lb ram in the Chambersburg or 30 sq inches to lift a 110 lb Say Mak ram... Three times the surface area to move less than twice as much weight.. It would take more pounds per sq inch of air to move the Say Mak.... I dont think its High pressure system, Just higher than a cast iron frame hammer.... And Im not all that smart, Like I said its just an assumption based on a feeble understanding of how hydraulic/pneumatic stuff works.. It could be there are other variables than pressure that are playing a part that I don't understand... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 The Massey hammers use a very complicated vertical valve, which gives a fully variable single blow. Its an object of joy to use as the ram moves in exact proportion to the handlever at any speed (including dead stop at any point in the stroke). Kind of like a hydraulic ram! It does this by channeling some of the air from the compressor piston into an internal resovior. Im not aware of 'high pressure' or 'low pressure' operating designs on self contined hammers. The HP differences must be down to the different valves. The 75kg (165lb) anyang uses 10 hp. 55kg Massey 7 hp. Dont know why the sahindler is so high??? Whats the ram weight on a '3B'? The control on the Massey sounds perfect. Sounds like a fantastic hammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 The electric motors in Europe run on 50 cycle current and in USA 60 cycle. The rpm of power hammer motors tends to be lower in Europe than in the USA. Tom Clark had a difficult time getting his early hammer(s) to run slow enough so he made some unique pulleys. That is not particularly germane to this conversation, I suppose. As for at least part of this conversation it is worthwhile to keep in mind that in the USA the 1800 rpm and 3600 rpm (minus slip angles that reduce rpm) can have the same torque but the faster one will have twice the hp, or they can have the same hp but the slower one will have twice the torque. HP is torque * rpm * a proportionality factor. Old time motors on Nazels ran very slow and had massive torque but not huge hp ratings. The physically huge diameter motors seen on industrial equipment astounds people who say thinigs like "It only has X hp". These motors used 3 phase current, of course, and the diameter was large to allow enough poles to permit the desired low rpm. On one of my self-contained research machines I used a 1200 rpm (minus about 100 rpm slip angle) 3 phase motor in order to get belts and pulleys to work out to get a slow enough machine without resorting to two sets of pulleys and belts with a jack shaft. And this quest for speed reduction is why spare tire hammers exist, namely, a nice diameter. That extremely clever hammer drive can be adapted to self-contained air hammers. At least I think it can; I haven't done it........yet. Finally, the Nazels hardly got above 20 to 30 psi according to my literature. But that is on one side of the piston, a below atmospheric pressure existed on the other side. If you are building a self contained hammer it is EXTREMELY important to determine how you are going to cushion the ram against the tendency to hurt itself at the top of its stroke. An air cushion won't work like on a utility hammer because of that below atmospheric pressure (aka suction). And that is why Nazel used its ambient air pressure system. The Turkish hammers sold by Clark had extra stroke room in the tup cylinder to avoid the problem and that is why he had to work hard control rpm carefully. At least that is my set of deductions after some conversation with Tom when I showed him video footage of my research machine. It may also be related to the higher pressures used in those machines, but I never set my sights on copying his machines. I built my own and did try to use Nazel ideas. I consider the Nazel design to be Beche design and I consider the low over all height achieved by the German engineers to be a technical work of art. But enough of my drivel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuge Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Please feel free to drivel on and on..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob S Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 On a self contained hammer that has a motor mounted on the back, I would like to know (short answer or long) how they work. Is it all Mechanical,Air or air over hydraulic. Is the motor driving a crank which is running a rod on a air cylinder then the air flow & psi running the ram. Has anyone ever built a junk yard hammer like this using off the self or out of the mud common parts: Crank shaft & bearings? Thanks Rick There is a very short video and two drawings here...http://www.anvilfire...r/jyh_index.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 The control on the Massey sounds perfect. Sounds like a fantastic hammer they are indeed the epitome of self contained hammers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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