How to make a million dollars smithing.

[fciron]

I dunno, if you're too flexible you can get bent into some rather uncomfortable shapes.

Mark, if it's a hobby then you don't have to break even. Just because some other folks do the same thing for a business does not mean that your hobby must make a profit. Think of folks that you know who spend money on cameras or musical instruments, they don't worry about making a profit even though the world holds professional photographers and musicians.

We now return you to the bad jokes. :D

[jimmy seale]

well..i'm working on my 2 nd. million....i done gave up on the first. hope ya'll do better :D

[ianinsa]

Mark,
"Millionaire? Naw, not me. To many headaches. Rather be a poor($) hobby smith than a rich office guy"???????????????
Why do'nt you just settle for being a rich($) profesional Blacksmith?
Ian

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

No one will make a million with the attitude of CAN'T, or WON'T.

I am an AmeriCAN, not an AmeriCAN'T, and I am going to try my best to make it to $1,000,000+.

Now for me it probably won't be through smithing, but through one of my other business ideas that I have.

Can it be done through smithing? I believe it can, and probably has been done. I saw a show about a smith who was making entry gates for estates that he was charging $100,000+ for. That's 10 gates to $1 million in sales. Add some more to get the $1 million in profit. He was a small shop, not a large corporation.

I know a machinery auctioneer who 10 years ago had already taken in 30 million in buyers premiums alone. I watched him go from an 84 Bronco to a stable filled with Porches, Mercedes, Range Rovers, and Cadillacs in his 10,000sqft house in a span of about 15 years. Do you think he said I will never make $1 million? He is another small company with just a few employees.

Dave Longaberger turned a dream of handmade baskets into a $1 BILLION in sales company with 8,000 employees by the end of 2000. Read the book Longaberger, an American success story sometime. You can probably find it at the library. He is a prime example of saying I CAN, not I CAN'T.

[fciron]

biggundoc,

Making a million dollars and making a million bucks off the work of your own two hands are two very different things. You might get lucky and become a famous artist, but that's like counting on your lottery jackpot. You could invent or design a product that people want and then have them mass produced, that's the approach of most businesses. You could hire some talented folks and be the guy that coordinates all the shop and clients coming together, that's about the closest model to making big money and being a blacksmith at the same time.

I don't think anyone here is saying you can't make a good living or you can't be a success. We just making kidding around and having some fun, there are other threads for serious consideration of business topics. B)

[monstermetal]

No one will make a million with the attitude of CAN'T, or WON'T.

I am an AmeriCAN, not an AmeriCAN'T, and I am going to try my best to make it to $1,000,000+.

Now for me it probably won't be through smithing, but through one of my other business ideas that I have.

Can it be done through smithing? I believe it can, and probably has been done. I saw a show about a smith who was making entry gates for estates that he was charging $100,000+ for. That's 10 gates to $1 million in sales. Add some more to get the $1 million in profit. He was a small shop, not a large corporation.

I know a machinery auctioneer who 10 years ago had already taken in 30 million in buyers premiums alone. I watched him go from an 84 Bronco to a stable filled with Porches, Mercedes, Range Rovers, and Cadillacs in his 10,000sqft house in a span of about 15 years. Do you think he said I will never make $1 million? He is another small company with just a few employees.

Dave Longaberger turned a dream of handmade baskets into a $1 BILLION in sales company with 8,000 employees by the end of 2000. Read the book Longaberger, an American success story sometime. You can probably find it at the library. He is a prime example of saying I CAN, not I CAN'T.

Although I think your right on all counts...

A better question to me is why would I need a million dollars? Why should I place a number on my success? Its important to me to be secure, to feel like I my finances in order and to be prepared for the future... But If I had a million dollars, I very well could be worse off then I am now

I already am a success.... I am doing what I want, how I want and am able to afford a comfortable life doing it... Happiness comes from wanting what you have, not having what you want...


“The greatest wealth is to live content with little.” Plato

"It is neither wealth nor splendor; but tranquility and occupation which give you happiness."
Thomas Jefferson


So if what you want is a Million dollars.... well I guess then go for it... ;)

[fciron]

A better question to me is why would I need a million dollars? Why should I place a number on ...blah blah blah

1985 1000 TON WILLIAMS & WHITE DOWN ACTING HYDRAULIC PRESS :P

[monstermetal]

1985 1000 TON WILLIAMS & WHITE DOWN ACTING HYDRAULIC PRESS

Already got one thats plenty big, you can have that one...

my 210 ton Willams White press

[fciron]

Lend me a couple hundred grand to pick it up. I'll let you play with it and I'll be in your debt forever.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

It's easy to take in a million dollars...........it's just hard to keep a million dollars. I was just in business to keep my suppliers and the government in business..........or so it seemed.

[ianinsa]

As a consideration 'if I've got to be miserable/unloved,etc? I'd rather be rich and miserable/unloved,etc. Than poor and miserable/unloved,etc.

Fciron said "You could hire some talented folks and be the guy that coordinates all the shop and clients coming together, that's about the closest model to making big money and being a blacksmith at the same time."

THIS IS ABOUT AS CLOSE TO BLACKSMITH GOSPEL AS YOU'RE GONNA GET!
You might even get to play with the forge and All the other toys in off time !

Ian

[ianinsa]

Already got one thats plenty big, you can have that one...

my 210 ton Willams White press

Larry, that's a magic looking toy There! And I suppose if you stuck in 2 slises with cheese & ham wrapped in foil on yop of that blank It would make lunch too.
Can I come and play?
Ian

[Timothy Miller]

I often times make more money wile every one is out of the shop, the door is locked and the radio on 11. It sometimes wonder why I even have employees its not that the guys I have don't work hard they do their best. Its the over head and fierce competition. I also feel like I spend about 40% of my time keeping them working.

[monstermetal]

I often times make more money wile every one is out of the shop, the door is locked and the radio on 11. It sometimes wonder why I even have employees its not that the guys I have don't work hard they do their best. Its the over head and fierce competition. I also feel like I spend about 40% of my time keeping them working.

If your only spending 40% of your time keeping them on track your doing great!

I personally am not a good manager of people... I find I can do much more work by myself than I can with help... The only way for me to be productive with helpers is If they work days and I nights or something to that affect..

[monstermetal]

Larry, that's a magic looking toy There! And I suppose if you stuck in 2 slises with cheese & ham wrapped in foil on yop of that blank It would make lunch too.
Can I come and play?
Ian

Any time Ian, It would be a treat ;)

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Larry,
why do I want a $1 million in the bank? First,and foremost, financial security, and I don't want to have to work till I croak to make ends meet. If I am still working, it is because I want too. It surely isn't to impress anybody. I am a pretty simple guy when it is all said, and done. No big screen here, I haven't watched my TV in over 2 years now. I drive used vehicles (the 98 Saturn has 257K on it), and shop at Savers/Goodwill/etc quite regularly. The only debt I have is my house. The only thing that I want people impressed with is my work.

It isn't putting a number on my future success, it is a number that I will need to live my life the way I want to. That is financially secure, and debt free. I am currently leading an existence, not much living going on at the moment. The money is currently flowing out as fast as it is coming in. It would be nice to do some of the things that I would like to do (travel for one) without worrying if I can afford it.

I currently have 58 ideas for products, and services that I would like to explore, but it is going to take some money to get the first one going. I started, and ran my first business debt free with no loans, or equipment leases. I hate debt, so I am selling some of my extras to get the finances I need to get one of my ideas off the ground. If it flops, I will just move on down the list. If they all flop, I will have at least tried.

Why do you feel that you would be worse off with a million in the bank,and no debt? I know some folks get stupid when the money flows, I have seen it a few times. Matter of fact the company I was working for went bankrupt partly due to this. I would rather have $$$$$$$ in the bank than running on the edge every month.

[forgemaster]

If your only spending 40% of your time keeping them on track your doing great!

I personally am not a good manager of people... I find I can do much more work by myself than I can with help... The only way for me to be productive with helpers is If they work days and I nights or something to that affect..

My brothers, I'm hearing you loud and clear, your statements will get no arguements from me. Once people stop asking me questions and the phone stops ringing and everyon ejust leaves me alone, thats when I can push some work out the door.

Phil

[Mainely,Bob]

If your only spending 40% of your time keeping them on track your doing great!

I personally am not a good manager of people... I find I can do much more work by myself than I can with help... The only way for me to be productive with helpers is If they work days and I nights or something to that affect..

Please dont take this personally there Larry and Tim but I don`t think the problem is your employees.Unless there are physical(or mental) limitations we are all capable of reaching the same level in all things.
If you work better alone that just means you`re easily distracted and/or unable to delegate tasks and let things go.
The fact of the matter is that everything just has to be done to a set standard they don`t have to be done YOUR way to get there.
We`ve discussed this before,if you have to jump in all the time you are getting distracted by the process and not focusing on the finished product.As long as an employee is being safe,on schedule and producing to standard just let them run and focus on the final product.Many roads and they all lead to town.
Reward systems and bonuses will help keep THEM focused.
If your employees are incapable of producing work to standard then you have neglected at least two things;Proper training prior to setting them loose or you are not effectively communicating what you need and the standards to hold.
If you fall into the micro-managing trap you set yourself up for failure.Your employees will cease independent thought and fail to be self motivating because they know there is no pleasing you till you come over and put your stamp of approval on every step and every little detail.
You are failing to train,challenge and then reward your employees.Is it any wonder they(and you business) are not reaching their full potential?
Anyone who thinks only they can do what they do has a bit too much ego engaged.Look at all the multi-million dollar art forgery out there and you`ll see what I mean.

[Timothy Miller]

They are not always being safe. They are running the drill press at the wrong speed. They need help lifting things. They need parts or steel that we didn't know we needed. They need to be shown how to run a machine they never used before. They are abusing a machine you have to remind them to slow down. They are using a too light of a hammer that wont do the job. They wont use a chisel to cut steel when it is the easiest fastest way to break that weld and its sitting next to them. You say use that chisel they look at you like "shut up expletive deleted" You look at the tool and its dull because they used it to bust up rocks last week. You show them how to grind it. Then you show them how to do it, then they look at you like oh he had a point. You have to spend an hour in the office to iron out some issue with IRS, payroll, etc. You check up on their progress 2 to 3 times throughout the day to make sure they are on track. Sometimes they are fine some times they need help. They forgot about the hardie and are walking over to the saw to cut off a fire poker point over and over agian. They are burning up expensive abrasives because they have forgot the correct progression of grits. I gave up on doing it my self a wile ago. Many things I let go but when a worker is doing these kinds of things I need to show them a better way. I cant let then damage equipment or waist time. I just can't find experienced help or there is some other issue. Its hard, I love my guys but this is a complicated trade and people don't always want to pay for all of the work that goes in to a job. I have kept people on for months hoping they would improve some do some don't.

[fciron]

Of course it feels more productive when you're the only one in there. I assume that you are making some money off of your employees labor, so when you do something yourself then you are making that profit, plus whatever the employee would make per hour. I also assume that you can do things faster and better because you're the guy that trained everyone. So, obviously, doing it yourself momentarily more profitable and it's certainly a lot more satisfying and fun than being in the office. (That's even before any control issues, I know I've got them, that's why I don't have employees.) At some point though, someone has to answer the phones and do the drawing and quoting.

Fine, so you make twice as much per hour doing it yourself and it's more fun. (Until the part where you have to do 53 hours of wire-brushing with the angle grinder. ) It is physically impossible for you to do more than 168 hours of work a week, so at some point, to make more money you need more employees and maybe more toys.

I think we all need to remind ourselves that the original poster's humorous answer to the question was "Start with two million." Several folks have posted realistic plans for retiring with a million in the bank. Alas, none of them are primarily based on me holding a nice glowy piece of metal every day. :mellow:

[monstermetal]

Please dont take this personally there Larry and Tim but I don`t think the problem is your employees.Unless there are physical(or mental) limitations we are all capable of reaching the same level in all things.
If you work better alone that just means you`re easily distracted and/or unable to delegate tasks and let things go.
The fact of the matter is that everything just has to be done to a set standard they don`t have to be done YOUR way to get there.
We`ve discussed this before,if you have to jump in all the time you are getting distracted by the process and not focusing on the finished product.As long as an employee is being safe,on schedule and producing to standard just let them run and focus on the final product.Many roads and they all lead to town.
Reward systems and bonuses will help keep THEM focused.
If your employees are incapable of producing work to standard then you have neglected at least two things;Proper training prior to setting them loose or you are not effectively communicating what you need and the standards to hold.
If you fall into the micro-managing trap you set yourself up for failure.Your employees will cease independent thought and fail to be self motivating because they know there is no pleasing you till you come over and put your stamp of approval on every step and every little detail.
You are failing to train,challenge and then reward your employees.Is it any wonder they(and you business) are not reaching their full potential?
Anyone who thinks only they can do what they do has a bit too much ego engaged.Look at all the multi-million dollar art forgery out there and you`ll see what I mean.

Bob you are completely missing the point...

I in no way think I am the only one who can do what I do... There are at least 50 people I could name by name who are far better at what I do, and thousands more I cant... It has nothing to do with the quality of work. Your absolutely right, Its my problem, I am flawed... I I understand and embrace that. My business is operating at its full potential I am turning close to a quarter million a year out of a one man shop.. What I want to do is build cool stuff, that's what I love, that's my business goal and my motivation to excel. My success is measured by how much I like what I am doing... I dont like being a babysitter for employees, I dont enjoy being in charge of even quality competent people. I dont like other people using my tools and wrecking my stuff. I have no interest in being a shop of 5,10 or 50 guys with me sitting in an office making a millions dollars a year... to me that would be a complete and total failure... Guess what... after all that sacrifice and effort to build that empire guess what I would do? I would go build me a shop to work in away from there... I want to like what I do, and do it how and when I want and most likely with the stereo blasting so loud everyone in earshot hates me There are times when it would be nice to have help, to not have to wire brush those thousand things... But my experience working with others, even good help.. is FOR ME its not a good trade off... I am better off to get less done and do it myself. Its how I can continue to enjoy my shop and not dread it. I had my 18 year old son working for me for about 8 months this year... And he is great help, best helper I have ever had... I was really quite sad things got slow enough he had to find other work... But even with him its amazing to me how much better mentally I am when hes not there. I have focus and drive that vanishes when others are in my space...

[monstermetal]

Larry,
why do I want a $1 million in the bank? First,and foremost, financial security, and I don't want to have to work till I croak to make ends meet. If I am still working, it is because I want too. It surely isn't to impress anybody. I am a pretty simple guy when it is all said, and done. No big screen here, I haven't watched my TV in over 2 years now. I drive used vehicles (the 98 Saturn has 257K on it), and shop at Savers/Goodwill/etc quite regularly. The only debt I have is my house. The only thing that I want people impressed with is my work.

It isn't putting a number on my future success, it is a number that I will need to live my life the way I want to. That is financially secure, and debt free. I am currently leading an existence, not much living going on at the moment. The money is currently flowing out as fast as it is coming in. It would be nice to do some of the things that I would like to do (travel for one) without worrying if I can afford it.

I currently have 58 ideas for products, and services that I would like to explore, but it is going to take some money to get the first one going. I started, and ran my first business debt free with no loans, or equipment leases. I hate debt, so I am selling some of my extras to get the finances I need to get one of my ideas off the ground. If it flops, I will just move on down the list. If they all flop, I will have at least tried.

Why do you feel that you would be worse off with a million in the bank,and no debt? I know some folks get stupid when the money flows, I have seen it a few times. Matter of fact the company I was working for went bankrupt partly due to this. I would rather have $$$$$$$ in the bank than running on the edge every month.

Its not that I think I would be worse off... But I dont think it would necessarily make things better... My experience has been that everything scales and more usually just means harder. I have $20,000+ run through my checking account every month... I dont have to worry about if I got money for grinding wheels or gas.... But I think I actually was able to spend more on non business stuff when I was pulling in $2,000 a month.. Ive had a hundred grand in the business account when times where good.... Im lucky to have a few thousand in there these days thats not going out as soon as it comes in.... But I am just as happy to get to go do what I love to do.... For me, success is not about how much money I have. I need money, I use money, I couldn't stop making money...(I spent $186,000 last year on materials, tools, overhead and consumables) But If I had $1,000 or a $1,000,000 or $10,000,000.... Id still be doing what I am doing now

And by the way I also have no debt, everything in my shop is paid for as well as my vehicles (now my wife's is another story) The only debt load I have is my home)

[Mainely,Bob]

Bob you are completely missing the point...

I in no way think I am the only one who can do what I do... There are at least 50 people I could name by name who are far better at what I do, and thousands more I cant... It has nothing to do with the quality of work. Your absolutely right, Its my problem, I am flawed... I I understand and embrace that. My business is operating at its full potential I am turning close to a quarter million a year out of a one man shop.. What I want to do is build cool stuff, that's what I love, that's my business goal and my motivation to excel. My success is measured by how much I like what I am doing... I dont like being a babysitter for employees, I dont enjoy being in charge of even quality competent people. I dont like other people using my tools and wrecking my stuff. I have no interest in being a shop of 5,10 or 50 guys with me sitting in an office making a millions dollars a year... to me that would be a complete and total failure... Guess what... after all that sacrifice and effort to build that empire guess what I would do? I would go build me a shop to work in away from there... I want to like what I do, and do it how and when I want and most likely with the stereo blasting so loud everyone in earshot hates me There are times when it would be nice to have help, to not have to wire brush those thousand things... But my experience working with others, even good help.. is FOR ME its not a good trade off... I am better off to get less done and do it myself. Its how I can continue to enjoy my shop and not dread it. I had my 18 year old son working for me for about 8 months this year... And he is great help, best helper I have ever had... I was really quite sad things got slow enough he had to find other work... But even with him its amazing to me how much better mentally I am when hes not there. I have focus and drive that vanishes when others are in my space...

I don`t think I missed the point at all,but that`s just my opinion.
What I know from experience is that if you expect people to be slugs and do nothing but slow you down,guess what,they will!
On the other hand if you take the time to loosen your grip on both control and perfection then things change focus and have the potential to become easier and quicker for everybody involved.
What I am talking about is "Making the jump from I to WE",as I have posted in the past.Together WE can accomplish more that I EVER can by myself.All it takes is clear and timely communication and a commitment to all move in the same direction and do the best we possibly can.
Each person has something they can do well.The trick for any supervisor is to find that thing and put the person where they can do the most good while feeling like a valued and contributing member of the group.

My point to you Larry is that you underestimate yourself.You are an intelligent and articulate person even if you won`t allow yourself own that fact.It`s not that you can`t communicate it`s that you don`t allow yourself to slow down and take the time to use all those exceptional skills you have inside to their best advantage when working with others.
Some things are your vision and yours alone.If you want things to be exactly like you envision then chase everybody out,bolt the door and do it all yourself.
If you just release that death grip on that vision a bit and give those around you some freedom to participate in that vision I think many times you`ll be surprised at the results.I know I have many times been blown away by changes brought on by peers and co-workers to things I thought I had all worked out.If I hadn`t kept an open mind and let them run a little then we all would have missed that.
PM me if you`re interested to hear some things that have worked for me to help improve the way I communicate and work with others.

Southy,You just need to spend more time showing your guys what is and is not acceptable.Set the standards and then live them.Good subordinates follow the boss`s example and will only do as much as they see him do.
Weed out the ones who refuse to keep their minds in the game.Consider the rewards system I spoke of in a previous post.Make it more profitable for them individually to be efficient and excel and see if they don`t take notice.
You`re a student of anthropology,empower them and they will find ways to improve on their own.

If that don`t work then give `em all the heave ho and start hiring guys out of Philly. ;)

[monstermetal]

I'm on my phone and it would take way to long to type a good reply so this is the short version. I get what your saying Bob and I think all those things are correct and valid. I don't think others are slugs. My last shop mate before my son was super talented., a way better metelworket than I. Some of the things he created far exceeded what I could or would have done. I left him in total control of the project and he did a fantastic job. I still hated him being in my space and found it very hard to get anything done while he was there. I could do all those things you speak of. I just have no idea why I would want to. I may not always feel the same, but today I feel grateful to have the shop to myself and if I had the choice of taking on 10 guys and putting a million a year in my pocket or working alone and squeaking by. The choice would be easy. I have made big money running a company division. I hated my life, I dreaded every time the phone rang. I just wanted to go work in the shop. I actualy went to the owners of the company and told them I would take a $15/hr pay cut to go back to the shop. They said "that's not what you want, your so good at this, we need you in charge". So I quit and started my own shop so I didn't have to manage all those people. I still think your missing the point. I'm not saying I couldn't I'm saying I don't want too, What I want to do is build stuff and I find much more joy alone

[Mainely,Bob]

Sorry if I misunderstood you Larry.I thought you were still coming from the same place as you were when you asked about how to deal with employees a while back.
I understand the freedom of only having yourself to deal with and worry about.You get to come and go as you please and if you want to work for 20 hours straight you can.
It really was a relief to go from a 120+ person company or even a 40 man platoon to just me or 1-2 other people as needed according to the job.
Whatever makes you happy is what`s right.
Sometimes I do my best problem solving just sitting and looking at the cove while petting the dog.Hard to do that with an employee back at the shop waiting for the solution.