smithing in games

[tmone]

First off I hope it is ok to post this here, if not I appologize. I hope some of you are gamers to some degree and can provide me with some feedback. I don't know a whole lot about smithing and am currently investigating it so I thought what would be better than to ask actual blacksmiths...here goes.

I am a hobbyist programmer and my team is planning to design a game which includes the art of smithing as it was around medieval times. We want it to be involved, not just a "click and watch" type of thing which some of you may have seen in some roleplaying games. It has to be translated in a fun way. So a direct simulation of every detail probably isn't what we want. Things will have to be sped up, steps may have to be omitted or combined with other steps in some way, etc.

What I want to know is, if you had to translate your craft into a game and make it work in a gameplay sense how would you do it? What are things you would have to stay aware of in a strategy sense, maybe temperature of the forge and item being worked on? What are the minimum tools you could break it down to?

Is it possible to make smithing anything other than a "click and watch" type of game? I personally believe it can be made into something so much better but I need help finding what that should be.

Some info on the game:
The game is sort of a FPS with strategy elements. There will be two teams competing against eachother. Teams will collect ore from mines and create weapons and armor. Other artisan skills may be included such as alchemy to make potions.

Thank you for reading. I eagerly await any feedback.

[Chris Pook]

I like video games

anything thats more involved and more skillful than just pushing a button is good.

[HWooldridge]

Interesting subject...my sons are avid gamers but I am not (although I do watch them on occasion).

Bad things that can happen: 1. The gamer is making a sword blade and it burns up because it was left in the forge too long at too high a temp. 2. A clinker forms because the smith took too much time to make an item and the fire gets cool so the gamer has to clean the fire.

Skills: Hit the same place twice with the pointer (hammer) so the part comes out straight. Improper hammering makes an item crooked. You could also double team with a striker so two players could participate with the same concept.

The ore idea is a good subplot - the smith puts the ore in a crucible and melts it to get the base material.

I may think of some other things but other folks can chime in.

[cheftjcook]

Hey Tmone, I remember the original "Leisure Suite Larry" game way back. I sounds like you could create a stratagey game on the same premise.
Find, collect & complete a tasks type of thing, all placed in progressively different settings, one stage building on another.

First the perspective smith would travel the country side in searchof knowledge ofter finding this strange new element Iron ore,. Interacting with different people collecting his/her skills in smithing and facing challenges.
Also collecting the "alchemy or potions" to create various alloys of iron, pewter, bronze, etc.
Each person has a small piece of knowledge. as he gathers those pieces of knowledge it fits together puzzle like to create a sum of knowledge greater than the parts.
All the different ways to work (forge/heat treat) metals for swords or daggers vs hammers & chisels vs. household items is Always tied into or based on real scientific data so the game player is learning as well.
Then as the perspective smith is aquiring the magical knowledge of the mystical ores he accumulates tools to work his "magic" with these ores & alloys. The tools would start out as basic a lump of meteor iron ore to start as his anvil. again tying in an air of mystery/magic to the metal that fell from the heavens.... He can melt down smaller chunks in a cooking fire to fashion a hammer head with either a wood or a claw bone of a dragon to make a handle. Can also discover different elements for hotter fires and how to use them.
All these elements he must find as he travels the country side, seeking to be the great SMITH.
When he has attained the level at which he has completed the tasks of anvil and hammer, he then starts on learning to work metals till he can "forge weld" metals at will.(far beyond me, grin) The sky is the limit for an adventure theme after that, He can forge common place Items as the plow to revolutionize farming or forge weapons of war or defense to influence world power struggles. In his travels he could learn to forge special hunting weapons to pierce dragon scales or travel the sea and create tools and weapons for the mariners and to defeat sea monsters. Or he could forge chisels for cutting stone for Art work like the "Venus" or "David" maybe stone cutting tools for building pyramids...etc. An other way would be to show how all others trades branched out from or rely on the smith for there tools.

Again each stage he would collect more or different iron ore as well as secret alchemy or potions and techniques to work the ore. These formulas and techniques (based all on fact/ science of forging & metal working) could be gotten or learned for a whole bunch of crazy characters he meets in his travels. There could be alot of fun in character development!
All of this could culminate in an Ultimate Goal of some sort for the
"The King of all Trades"

I hope you have a great time creating the Game and you learn alot about the smith truely being the King of all Trades
There are so many knowledgable people here getting intimate details of A smiths work and forging should be easy.
I'm still looking for meteor iron ore for my new magic anvil ,Grin!!!!
Good Luck
TIM

[tmone]

Interesting subject...my sons are avid gamers but I am not (although I do watch them on occasion).

Bad things that can happen: 1. The gamer is making a sword blade and it burns up because it was left in the forge too long at too high a temp. 2. A clinker forms because the smith took too much time to make an item and the fire gets cool so the gamer has to clean the fire.

Skills: Hit the same place twice with the pointer (hammer) so the part comes out straight. Improper hammering makes an item crooked. You could also double team with a striker so two players could participate with the same concept.

The ore idea is a good subplot - the smith puts the ore in a crucible and melts it to get the base material.

I may think of some other things but other folks can chime in.

Directing your strikes with the hammer could work, maybe the pointer strays and you have to make adjustments to your aim while keeping an eye on other things such as temperature. I like the double team idea. I had thought about that as well, working together could be interesting.

Thanks! Keep the ideas coming!

[tmone]

Hey Tmone, I remember the original "Leisure Suite Larry" game way back. I sounds like you could create a stratagey game on the same premise.
Find, collect & complete a tasks type of thing, all placed in progressively different settings, one stage building on another.

First the perspective smith would travel the country side in searchof knowledge ofter finding this strange new element Iron ore,. Interacting with different people collecting his/her skills in smithing and facing challenges.
Also collecting the "alchemy or potions" to create various alloys of iron, pewter, bronze, etc.
Each person has a small piece of knowledge. as he gathers those pieces of knowledge it fits together puzzle like to create a sum of knowledge greater than the parts.
All the different ways to work (forge/heat treat) metals for swords or daggers vs hammers & chisels vs. household items is Always tied into or based on real scientific data so the game player is learning as well.
Then as the perspective smith is aquiring the magical knowledge of the mystical ores he accumulates tools to work his "magic" with these ores & alloys. The tools would start out as basic a lump of meteor iron ore to start as his anvil. again tying in an air of mystery/magic to the metal that fell from the heavens.... He can melt down smaller chunks in a cooking fire to fashion a hammer head with either a wood or a claw bone of a dragon to make a handle. Can also discover different elements for hotter fires and how to use them.
All these elements he must find as he travels the country side, seeking to be the great SMITH.
When he has attained the level at which he has completed the tasks of anvil and hammer, he then starts on learning to work metals till he can "forge weld" metals at will.(far beyond me, grin) The sky is the limit for an adventure theme after that, He can forge common place Items as the plow to revolutionize farming or forge weapons of war or defense to influence world power struggles. In his travels he could learn to forge special hunting weapons to pierce dragon scales or travel the sea and create tools and weapons for the mariners and to defeat sea monsters. Or he could forge chisels for cutting stone for Art work like the "Venus" or "David" maybe stone cutting tools for building pyramids...etc. An other way would be to show how all others trades branched out from or rely on the smith for there tools.

Again each stage he would collect more or different iron ore as well as secret alchemy or potions and techniques to work the ore. These formulas and techniques (based all on fact/ science of forging & metal working) could be gotten or learned for a whole bunch of crazy characters he meets in his travels. There could be alot of fun in character development!
All of this could culminate in an Ultimate Goal of some sort for the
"The King of all Trades"

I hope you have a great time creating the Game and you learn alot about the smith truely being the King of all Trades
There are so many knowledgable people here getting intimate details of A smiths work and forging should be easy.
I'm still looking for meteor iron ore for my new magic anvil ,Grin!!!!
Good Luck
TIM

Interesting stuff. While this game will mainly be an online multiplayer game, team vs team style, if we develop a single player side there are some good ideas you gave.

I really need ideas on the mechanics of the actual smithing process...how it will work in game. Ex. aiming hammer strikes, adjusting temperatures. Whatever you think would make it fun rather than just selecting an item from a list and hitting a create button and waiting for it to say success or fail. That's not much fun and there isn't any skill involved.

But, like i said, it can't be a direct simulation. The gameplay will be too fast paced so things will need to be altered to keep it fun.

Thanks for your feedback!

[Ten Hammers]

OK, here goes. Hollis started you out with some very good things to think about ( HWooldridge ). Do you have a location in the world that this game will take place ? In midievil times, the fuel for the fire would almost assuredly have been charcoal ( this ain't briquettes ). Building a fire would be a skill. Maintaining the fire with bellows would be a skill ( although charcoal really doesn't require the same skill level as coal does ). As Hollis stated, hammer control is one of the really major things to acquire in order to get the result you want in forged goods. You will also have holes to be punched, slots to be slit, top tools, bottom tools, making tongs ( and virtually any other hand tools used in smithing ), hot cuts, drawing out, upsetting.....the list can go on for a while. These are all either skills used or tools used. Let us know what your thoughts are.

[Glenn]

Why not build a forge and get some actual first hand experience in blacksmithing to better understand what your trying to put into the game.

The heat coming from the forge, the heat coming from the hot iron, how much energy is needed to move metal are all things you need to experience. The fire does not cooperate all the time, it has to be managed. Burning wood, burning charcoal, and burning coal is each different and requires different fire managment. And then there are the days no matter what you do, things don't work, even though you are doing things the very same way as you did them the day before.

Blacksmithing is like swimming in water. You can have a lot of theory, you can gain much knowledge on the subject, but once you actually swallow a gulp of water, it becomes a personal experience. And no one said it was fresh water, what if it was a gulp of salt water you swallowed?

Let us know what part of the world your from and we will try to find a local blacksmithing group that can show you first hand about the craft. The first time you hit hot metal is an experience. Your first project is a treasure you will remember the rest of your life.

[Strine]

When you call up the game about blacksmithing a pop up could appear saying something like get off the computer and find a real smith somewhere.

[Archie Zietman]

also, in the whole potions and alchemy thing, you need to be able to make various fluxes, so some kind of borax, wood ash mixes, and other more aggressive fluxes. And also, you need to be able to heat the metal up to different temps. I used to play computer games and too often in the games and movies the "smith" is just forging at a dull red, or they quench and continue beating on black metal (shame on them, they will wet the bed for pounding cold metal!)
Oh! more ideas: You also need to have various fuels like different woods, charcoal of different woods, different veins of coal, and dried corn, and manure. You should try at least once each fuel you plan to put in, and the different fluxes and heats. Merry Forging!

[tmone]

OK, here goes. Hollis started you out with some very good things to think about ( HWooldridge ). Do you have a location in the world that this game will take place ? In midievil times, the fuel for the fire would almost assuredly have been charcoal ( this ain't briquettes ). Building a fire would be a skill. Maintaining the fire with bellows would be a skill ( although charcoal really doesn't require the same skill level as coal does ). As Hollis stated, hammer control is one of the really major things to acquire in order to get the result you want in forged goods. You will also have holes to be punched, slots to be slit, top tools, bottom tools, making tongs ( and virtually any other hand tools used in smithing ), hot cuts, drawing out, upsetting.....the list can go on for a while. These are all either skills used or tools used. Let us know what your thoughts are.

We have been playing with the idea of it taking place in a fantasy setting beneath a mountain. Sorta like the dwarves in Lord of the Rings, think mines of moria... We're not sure exactly how it would work yet but perhaps there would be areas to mine coal for the fuel. Other areas to mine for the ores. The smelting process would probably be simply automated, not sure how we could make that very involved yet. So, players could get right to creating an item.

Here is what I'm thinking the process might be like:
1) Select an item to make from a categorized menu. (weapon, armor, tool, etc)
2) Heat the required metal to be used. ( if it's available, else go and collect it first) May include managing forge temperature as well.
3) Begin hammering phase. I'm thinking the hammering will be continuous and you will have to "aim" your pointer at the proper locations on the metal. (At first it will be harder to aim, the pointer will stray on you to simulate lack of skill. The more items you craft the more experience you gain in your hammering making it easier to aim. Different items will be harder to make so if your skill is too low then you will have to stick to easier items until you get better.)
4) While step 3 is underway you will keep an eye on temperature of the metal to make sure it stays hot enough to work. If it gets too cold you have to go back to step 2 and heat it some more and then back to step 3, this could go back and forth a few times.

Depending on how accurate you were with your strikes may affect how many times you have to cycle between step 2 and 3. Also thinking that the quality of the item will degrade based on accuracy. So, if you are really bad at keeping a good aim and hitting the proper locations then you will make bad quality weapons etc, which will do less damage or break easier perhaps.

I was thinking on the easier items the proper locations would be highlighted for where you should strike next. Then as you start making harder items there will be no highlighting and you will have to experiment to find the proper way to hammer it. This way players can develop and discover their own techniques for certain items and will seperate the good smiths from the bad. Statistical reports will be kept to show who made the best items in the game.

I'm not sure how much more involved we should go on the process. I want to simplify it enough to make it fast enough for the game. If all steps are included it may take too long to make enough items for your team to be functional.

[tmone]

Why not build a forge and get some actual first hand experience in blacksmithing to better understand what your trying to put into the game.

The heat coming from the forge, the heat coming from the hot iron, how much energy is needed to move metal are all things you need to experience. The fire does not cooperate all the time, it has to be managed. Burning wood, burning charcoal, and burning coal is each different and requires different fire managment. And then there are the days no matter what you do, things don't work, even though you are doing things the very same way as you did them the day before.

Blacksmithing is like swimming in water. You can have a lot of theory, you can gain much knowledge on the subject, but once you actually swallow a gulp of water, it becomes a personal experience. And no one said it was fresh water, what if it was a gulp of salt water you swallowed?

Let us know what part of the world your from and we will try to find a local blacksmithing group that can show you first hand about the craft. The first time you hit hot metal is an experience. Your first project is a treasure you will remember the rest of your life.

Well unfortunately I have no where to build a forge. I'm already involved in other classes at the moment as well so I doubt I could fit in anything else at the moment but perhaps at some point it will be a possibility. I will definately keep that in mind.

The system doesn't have to be perfect. Too many times do games just have an endless supply of weapons and armor which leaves me to think where is it all coming from. I wanted to offer the players the chance to actually take and active role in supplying their teams with the items they use. I think it could be a fun system if implemented properly. So, it may not be an exact simulation of how it was really done but hopefully it will be enough to be entertaining and rewarding.

[tmone]

also, in the whole potions and alchemy thing, you need to be able to make various fluxes, so some kind of borax, wood ash mixes, and other more aggressive fluxes. And also, you need to be able to heat the metal up to different temps. I used to play computer games and too often in the games and movies the "smith" is just forging at a dull red, or they quench and continue beating on black metal (shame on them, they will wet the bed for pounding cold metal!)
Oh! more ideas: You also need to have various fuels like different woods, charcoal of different woods, different veins of coal, and dried corn, and manure. You should try at least once each fuel you plan to put in, and the different fluxes and heats. Merry Forging!

Well there will most definately be coal and likely wood in some form. I don't know much about fluxes. Maybe you could go into detail with how that might work in game?

I do plan to let players manage the temperature on the metal. Though I'm still learning about how hot you would want to keep it and when to quench etc.

Thanks for your comments.

[Archie Zietman]

Tmone, about your first post with hammering, you might want to have armour pieces heated in only selected places at one time, and then dished lightly from the inside on an anvil, then choose your stake (tinman stake, T stake, composite ox tungued stake, ball stake) and then raise it with the appropriate hammers. You don't forge armour only on the anvil, this would also help with the visual process of showing armour being forged.

[tmone]

yeah, i see I'll have to read up more on how armor is crafted and those stakes...

Hopefully I can simplify it, I want to keep the steps managable.

[Mr Smith]

Tmone

I play a whole lot of games. What you are suggesting sounds like fun.

Here's my two cents -

1. Have a kind of "tech tree" but for tools. When I started, I had a small ball pein hammer. Now I have a big crate full. Every new tool means I can make new things, some of which are tools which I need to make more things, and so on. You can have a tech tree for skills (forge weld, tempering, etc) running parallel.

2. I think you may want to have more categories of metal than just iron. Historically, steel was made by heating iron to a certain temperature and allowing carbon to soak in. Perhaps being able to make better steel by using up coal and iron? Then you could have better steel, at the cost of time.
Perhaps some fantasy metals like mithril, and so on? Another way of improving metal was case hardening, where a metal object is encased in carbon-rich material and heated for a day or two. All ideas.

3. A lot of smithing is dependent on timing. Put the steel in the fire, let it heat, then whilst it is heating, gather your tools, then pull the steel out of the fire and work. If you bring it out too early, it won't work as easy. If you leave it too late, it burns and is ruined.

I hope some of this helps.
If I can help further, please let me know.

[tmone]

Tmone

I play a whole lot of games. What you are suggesting sounds like fun.

Here's my two cents -

1. Have a kind of "tech tree" but for tools. When I started, I had a small ball pein hammer. Now I have a big crate full. Every new tool means I can make new things, some of which are tools which I need to make more things, and so on. You can have a tech tree for skills (forge weld, tempering, etc) running parallel.

2. I think you may want to have more categories of metal than just iron. Historically, steel was made by heating iron to a certain temperature and allowing carbon to soak in. Perhaps being able to make better steel by using up coal and iron? Then you could have better steel, at the cost of time.
Perhaps some fantasy metals like mithril, and so on? Another way of improving metal was case hardening, where a metal object is encased in carbon-rich material and heated for a day or two. All ideas.

3. A lot of smithing is dependent on timing. Put the steel in the fire, let it heat, then whilst it is heating, gather your tools, then pull the steel out of the fire and work. If you bring it out too early, it won't work as easy. If you leave it too late, it burns and is ruined.

I hope some of this helps.
If I can help further, please let me know.

A tech tree could work. Skills and tools unlock based on your experience level perhaps. Would these higher tier tools be created using your old tools or just the ability to use them become available? I plan to have the basic tools (hammers, tongs, mining picks, etc) available to start but not sure if you should have to create the other tools or just have them available and hinder your ability to use them until you gain the required experience.

I hope to involve many different ores. There might be some kind of excavation skill where you have to find veins to mine from. Creating better metals at the cost of time is also interesting. That could certainly introduce some more strategy elements. Teams will have to decide whether to pursue a metal uprade or to continue using the standard metals. This could tie into the alchemist skill to create the new metal?

That reminds me, I meant to mention how the players experience might work. I was thinking of a "learn by doing" type of system. The more you smith the better you are. The more you fight the more effective you are with weapons/armor. The more you mine the faster you are at it, the stronger you are to carry more things etc. Different skills will build different statistics such as strength and stamina. Also if you stop using a skill for too long it will degrade a bit. So if you become a great smith and then start fighting all the time you will lose a bit of smithing ability due to not practicing that skill anymore. These are just a few ideas on the drawing board...

In reference to 3. I do plan to make temperature control an important aspect. Though it will be sped up greatly so I'm not sure you will be gathering tools or not. Maybe different items will have recommended tools and if they are available you can use them. If not, perhaps you could attempt to use a lesser tool but the item quality would likely be lesser as well. So maybe a list of tools will come up to select from and the recommended tool will be indicated and you make your selection and proceed with that step of the process.

Some of this may be too involved though. It's going to have to be balanced to maintain the proper pace. Simple weapons and tools shouldn't take more than 5-10 minutes to create. More advanced items may take a bit longer. Imagine there will be maybe 15 or so players per team. Some of these will have to maintain the defense, some will likely be mining for the smiths and the rest obviously smithing to keep up the supply of weapons and armor. Items won't last forever, some will drop to the ground upon death and can be collected and used again but many times the items will break. This is so the smiths can continue to work rather than just making stuff at the beginning and being done with it. Also you will constantly be improving to better items so many of the old items will become obsolete.

[Lugnut]

I play a few video games so I'll throw in my two cents

Something dealing with the hardening/tempering process for weapons could be done very neatly in a game.

Once steel is hardened it has to be tempered to the desired hardness and on steel this can be observed through the running of colors (like a rainbow)

Maybe an element of the game could involve having to quench the weapon at a certain point in the running of colors upon the item. The more accurate the quench time, the better the weapon.

Perhaps different materials flow the colors quicker or slower, perhaps some secrets in the game could involve quenching certain weapon at certain colors to get special abilities.

I'm sure one of the more experienced guys around here will correct me if I made and errors in trying to explain this process.

[Glenn]

When you acquire a new tool, there is always a learning curve. And if you have not had some experience with the more basic tools, the more advanced tools do not work nearly as well.

For instance, if you have not experienced hot to move metal with a hand hammer, the sledge hammer has a much longer learning curve. You need to learn how much effort is needed to make the sledge hammer effictive and not just smash metal.

A team of strikers is the next step up, but all should be at the same level of skill in using sledges. Striking is a learning experience as there is both a rythum and the same effort of impact involved. If someone new joins the striking team with no experience the rythum is way off and you bump hammers. The experienced smith does not use a sledge, but simply indicates where he wants the strikers blow to land and with the force the smith dictates.

There always those tools that are found that look wonderful, and as blacksmiths we bring them home (sometimes at great expense) only to find that they are not complete and no not work, are not suitable for the job, or that (dare I say it) we just do not have the experience for operating the tool properly.

Making armour, making knives, making swords (advanced knife making skills) are all specialities of blacksmithing. You could go as far as giving the horse from the game greater power is the blacksmith were to shoe him. It is a timed power as the horse has to be shod every 3-4 weeks to be kept in good condition. Farriers help us out here.

There are so many ways you can make this game interesting

[ThomasPowers]

OK "medieval European" background:

1 The smith in medieval europe was VERY UNLIKELY to be involved with the mining and smelting of ore, iron/steel has been a trade good since the iron age---cf "currency bars". So have they have to buy/barter for the correct materials---and they need to know what they should use---the better stuff is harder to get/more expensive!

2: you're talking about nearly 1000 years from primitive bag bellows to water powered gang bellows so nicely shown in De Re Metallica (a great source of pictures for an "industrial" setting)

3: the smith working alone as a single person is about as accurate as a surgeon today being the only person in the opperating room doing major surgery. The smith will have strikers, bellows thralls, apprentices fetching charcoal, etc.

4: a "medieval" smith making a blade from start to finish was just not done either. He would forge/heat treat the blade (with the help of his staff) then send it to the grinders who would grind and polish it and then they would send it to the hilters who would make the fittings and put the guard/grip/pommel on it and then to the sheathmaking folks---*seperate* crafts, seperate medieval guilds, Note that it might also go to another different shop for embellishment/engraving/gilding, etc.

(Note that the japanese swords are made in much the same way with a series of different skilled craftsmen working on a blade from start to finish)


Now tidbits of "gamecraft" Do they get the right alloy? The better alloys are harder to work---higher carbon steels will burn or crack if worked outside of their temperature limit. Alloys require different quenching mediums, (use of a magnet to determing the curie point in heat treating would be a "master level secret"), the alloy needs to be quenched in the proper medium or catastrophic failure may occur. Do they draw temper after heat treating? Do you want to put in differential tempering for "better" blades? Do you really want to throw a curve in and have some wootz cakes available---takes very different forging and heat treat skills; but can make a superior blade!

If I was trying to do it semi "right" I would have the sword forge set up and they have to place the blade in it and get the right part in the "hot spot" and then make sure they only work on the hot region---a misstrike on a cold region can result in starting over. (or as I say to my students "Hit it where it's hot; *not* where it's not!"; or how about the famous "you hold the cold end and hit the hot end and get it RIGHT next time")

BTW you can build a one firebrick forge that fits into a coffee can and uses a small propane plumbing torch to provide heat---good only for small work but I have *NEVER* found somone who could not figure a way to get a forge to use if they *wanted* to. Though I had one student/friend who lost more dorm roomates that way---something about the scrap metal under the bed and the workbench where his desk used to be...

Thomas

[Rantalin]

OK, I'm gonna skip reading everyone else's replies, and give my ideas.

First, don't make things TOO complicated. Yeah, there are a lot of steps in getting prepared to forge an item, but not ALL of them need to be followed exactly.

Instead of having a place to mine for fuel, have an NPC merchant that's already done the work. (Although you could leave the option open for players who DO wish do mine or prepare their own fuel)

Just got a good idead and don't wanna forget it. Each person should start off with very little skill. Only being able to forge basic, low quality items. As they progress, they "learn" to make new objects. This could be done by having a journal or notebook that has the techniques in it for making a weapon or armor. As the player "levels up" in smithing skill, a new entry is automatically added to the journal describing exactly what steps the smith must take in order to make the new item. It might be a good idea to do away with fire managment, as important as it is, and focus on just the hammering part. The ease of moving the metal could be determined by the length of time left in the fire, which has to be lit before each forging session.

Ok, now for the forging process. Picture this, your screen shows a piece of iron in the fire, maybe just a 1 inch square bar about a foot long, as an example. when you want to take it out, double click it. The tongs are shown taking the iron out of the fire, and the screen shifts over to the anvil, with the bar sitting on it, no tongs holding it (to make the gameplay a little easier in terms of visibility and ease of play. The work is done on only two demensions, for now at least. So you have this orange/yellow bar, and you look at the diagram in your journal, showing the steps required to make, say a dagger. Single click to draw out (make the area longer and thinner), double click to upset (make the ares thicker and shorter). The steps could be a combination of sketches and text, to make things clearer for the player. The steps in making a dagger could be something like:

1) Draw out the blade (with an image showing a series of single clicks [represented by a symbol of some sort] along the upper part of the bar.
2) Upset the pommel (shown by another series of double clicks along the very back of the bar
3)Put a bevel on each side of the blade (shown by single clicks along each side of the blade section to form the edge)

As the steps are followed, the image of the bar changes to reflect what is being done, ending in a finished blade. Further work could be incorperated, such as sharpening the blade, polishing it on a stone, etc.

A good thing to do, would be to make sure that the programming only allows pieces to be made by smiths with the appropriate skill. If a smith tries to make something that he/she has not learned, the iron becomes junk, and must be scrapped. And don't make it TOO long between forging level up's, or make sure the player has a few different items he/she could make at each level. (Swords, axes, knives, daggers, spears, helmets, shields, etc.) This way, they aren't just making the same thing over and over and over. I'm sure I could come up with a whole lot more. If you have any questions or need more help, feel free to message me.

[Rantalin]

By the way, great idea. And I had another one. As others have said, make other tools available, better hammers and such. And the better the equipment that you use, the better the item comes out, more damage/defense, or better looking.

[Archie Zietman]

Your angle could change from side on when drawing out to bird's eye view for the bevels, then side on with the piece vertical of pommel upsetting, or whichever angle suits what you are doing. Once you are satisfied with how you drew out the bar or whichever stage you are on, you could click a "next stage" button and go from there. You could also have the piece getting cooler as you go, so you have a repeatable "reheating stage" which you can do when and however many times you want.

[tmone]

Thanks for the feedback. I will read them and reply after dinner... :)

[tmone]

OK "medieval European" background:

1 The smith in medieval europe was VERY UNLIKELY to be involved with the mining and smelting of ore, iron/steel has been a trade good since the iron age---cf "currency bars". So have they have to buy/barter for the correct materials---and they need to know what they should use---the better stuff is harder to get/more expensive!

2: you're talking about nearly 1000 years from primitive bag bellows to water powered gang bellows so nicely shown in De Re Metallica (a great source of pictures for an "industrial" setting)

3: the smith working alone as a single person is about as accurate as a surgeon today being the only person in the opperating room doing major surgery. The smith will have strikers, bellows thralls, apprentices fetching charcoal, etc.

4: a "medieval" smith making a blade from start to finish was just not done either. He would forge/heat treat the blade (with the help of his staff) then send it to the grinders who would grind and polish it and then they would send it to the hilters who would make the fittings and put the guard/grip/pommel on it and then to the sheathmaking folks---*seperate* crafts, seperate medieval guilds, Note that it might also go to another different shop for embellishment/engraving/gilding, etc.

(Note that the japanese swords are made in much the same way with a series of different skilled craftsmen working on a blade from start to finish)


Now tidbits of "gamecraft" Do they get the right alloy? The better alloys are harder to work---higher carbon steels will burn or crack if worked outside of their temperature limit. Alloys require different quenching mediums, (use of a magnet to determing the curie point in heat treating would be a "master level secret"), the alloy needs to be quenched in the proper medium or catastrophic failure may occur. Do they draw temper after heat treating? Do you want to put in differential tempering for "better" blades? Do you really want to throw a curve in and have some wootz cakes available---takes very different forging and heat treat skills; but can make a superior blade!

If I was trying to do it semi "right" I would have the sword forge set up and they have to place the blade in it and get the right part in the "hot spot" and then make sure they only work on the hot region---a misstrike on a cold region can result in starting over. (or as I say to my students "Hit it where it's hot; *not* where it's not!"; or how about the famous "you hold the cold end and hit the hot end and get it RIGHT next time")

BTW you can build a one firebrick forge that fits into a coffee can and uses a small propane plumbing torch to provide heat---good only for small work but I have *NEVER* found somone who could not figure a way to get a forge to use if they *wanted* to. Though I had one student/friend who lost more dorm roomates that way---something about the scrap metal under the bed and the workbench where his desk used to be...

Thomas

1: We have tossed around the idea of having strategic mining points that would have to be held by a team. As long as you control the mine then npc miners would continuously harvest from it. The opposing team would likely try to take over mines of precious metals to have the advantage that metal may give in what items it makes. This only leaves transportation of the metal back to the forge to be used. Players would go out and collect the metal in carts or something like that. It would be in the teams best interest to send out an escort party to collect large quantities of metal. This should add another element of strategy. Of course single players can still collect a small amount of metal to bring back to the forge as well.

2: I will have to look into the bellows. We are open to any ideas here. It can even be a fantasy design that doesn't really exist as long as it seems possible.

3: There may not be enough players to go around for that many jobs. I'm thinking if teaming on a forge will be an option that it will likely be limited to two people to keep it simple and fun.

4: Some of those jobs may be possible to include. Maybe simply magical engravings of some sort to improve different qualities of items. Anything that can be made fun is a possibility.

The quenching mediums may be a bit too advanced at this point. Tempering may be included later also but for now I want to get some basics sorted out. The system can always be build upon if it would improve gameplay. But that could certainly fall under advanced skills.

I like your idea of selecting the proper region to heat in the hotspot. Once a flow is worked out for how an item should be created this could come into play.